
From mknappe@juniper.net  Fri Oct  1 08:52:03 2010
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From: Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
To: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 08:52:26 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] Draft codec WG agenda IETF79
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Subject: [codec]  Draft codec WG agenda IETF79
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Here=92s the proposed codec WG agenda for IETF79 in Beijing, we=92ve put in=
 a request for a 2 hour timeslot. Please reply with any comments and sugges=
tions, thanks.

1. Administrivia [10 min]
2. Guidelines and requirements doc progress [25 min]
3. Codec development status [15 min]
4. Codec design walkthrough (a brief tutorial on the design to-date) [25 mi=
n]
5. Codec testing status [20 min]
6. Timelines, actions and wrap-up [20 min]

Cheers,

Mike

From fluffy@cisco.com  Fri Oct  1 09:40:20 2010
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: [codec] Tentative scheduled for IETF 79
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This is just the tentative time and it could change but as FYI ...

CODEC Session 1 (2 hours)
Tuesday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500
Room Name: Valley Ballroom C



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Subject: [codec] Summary of codec specification
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With my chair hat on, here are thing thing I believe we have consensus =
on to move forward on.

1) The code will be in the appendix of the draft base64 encoded. We can =
sort out later if it is gziped tar file of whatever but it will be some =
easy to extract format. This has been done on other documents. I have =
talked to the AD about this before. I have not talked to RFC Ed but do =
not foresee any issues there.=20

2) The code will be under the simplified BSD license as specified by =
current IETF process documents and most importantly the IETF Trust =
Licensee Policy. (As a side note, this is not a topic that is debatable =
in this WG - if you want to change IETF process, go somewhere else)

3) We have rough consensus that where the code and the text version =
description of the algorithm disagree, the code version is the one that =
is "correct"

4) The chairs have not yet made any decision about if we have consensus =
on bit-exactness. I'm not 100% sure where we stand on this but given we =
are in doubt on this, there is no consensus yet.=20

5) The chairs have not made any decisions about if we have consensus on =
characterization gating. See logic around #4.=20

Once we have a WG guidelines document, we as a WG can make sure it =
represents what is and is not consensus - something we can't do for an =
individual draft. Given the discussion over the last week, we are =
probably going to  adopt draft-valin-codec-guidelines as the basis for =
the WG document  some time real soon now. The chairs need to have a few =
more conversations about this first. It's would be fine at this point in =
time for a WG draft on guidelines to have proposed text in it that did =
not yet have consensus but it should clearly state they did not have =
consensus and was simply proposed text.=20

Cullen <CODEC Co-Chair> - That's a lot of "C"s


From fluffy@cisco.com  Fri Oct  1 10:36:59 2010
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
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References: <C8C24B29.24A5A%stewe@stewe.org> <4C9D0C24.5080302@usherbrooke.ca> <4c9d216e.1021cc0a.658d.51bf@mx.google.com> <4C9D3288.1000608@usherbrooke.ca> <20100925105523.15884gktkx78i41n@webmail.uniud.it>
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These are all valid concerns, but I think people have often found that =
the providing code path is the "least bad way" of specifying codecs.  I =
did want to point out that bugs are found in specs all the time =
regardless if they are C code, english text, or something else. We have =
an errata process for updating RFCs as well as a ways to publish new =
versions of RFCs. I think that is about the best we can do. It's also =
easy to accidentally write ambiguous text like your C example below. =
Again, this happens in both english and C - we just need to do our best =
to keep an eye open for those and fix them. That's one of the advantages =
of having "running code" - it helps discover the corner cases that are =
under specified. The code tends to be "Reference" in that it is written =
to help illustrate the algorithm and is often not the most optimal way =
to implement the algorithm, may not be thread safe, may need changes to =
be ported to some platforms and so on.  C may not be the best for this =
but it has the advantage of behind widely understood - particularly in =
DSP codec circles. We could have a huge argument about what language for =
a long time. I have seen that argument before and it's not fun. In the =
end, the odds we would choose C are extremely high.=20

Cullen


On Sep 25, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote:

> Quoting Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>:
>=20
>> Hi Roni,
>>=20
>> Thanks for the correction on the case of G.719. Despite that, my =
point still stands: there *are* codecs for which the decoder is =
standardized without a bit-exact definition. As long as we define the =
amount of deviation permitted, then there is no problem.
>>=20
>> Oh, and I do agree that the C code should take precedence over the =
mathematical description.
>=20
> A question just came to my mind: what about bugs in the C code?  =
Suppose, for example, that the algorithm requires the computation of a =
DCT of a block of samples and that there is some typo in the constants =
used in the C code, so that what the C code computes is not the DCT, but =
something similar and the difference is such that it really does not =
matter in most cases, but causes very bad performances (when compared =
with theoretical description) in others.  In this case, the precedence =
would go to the "wrong" description.
>=20
> I agree that the example above is somehow  weak (I just invented it =
"on the spot"), but I hope that spirit is clear: it could happen that =
despite of all attention we could pay, some subtle but important bugs =
could find their way to the C code.  Also I agree that we can always =
publish an errata or an RFC that obsolete the old one.
>=20
> Another doubt about having a C code as a normative reference: could =
portability issues make the code "ambiguous"?  For example, a code could =
use the assumption that int is _exactly_ 32 bits long and short is =
_exactly_ 16 bits.  If the same code is run on a processor that uses, =
say, 64 bits for int and 32 for shorts, maybe the results could be =
different.  Of course, you can solve this _specific_ issue by including =
stdint.h (not available everywhere, though) and using types like =
int16_t, but what I want to point out is that we must pay attention to =
this type of portability issues, if we want the meaning of the C code =
being non-ambiguous.  Another example, much more subtle, could be
>=20
>  int foo[3];
>  int goo, foo=3D3;
>  int *pt;
>=20
>  pt  =3D (int*) foo;
>  goo =3D (int) pt;  /* Is really pt=3D=3Dfoo? */
>=20
> As far as I know (but I am not a C language-lawyer), the standard =
grants that conversion pointer-to-integer-to-pointer will give the =
original pointer back, but nothing is said about the case above (imagine =
an architecture where addresses can be only even).  Although the code =
above would work on a typical x86 architecture, I would not use it in a =
code that should play the role of a reference.
>=20
> By the way, I agree that the code above is quite silly, but I seen =
things like this used, for example, in multi-thread applications where =
the programmer wanted to pass an integer by using a function that =
expected a pointer.
>=20
> What about using some other language with less portability issues, =
such as Ada or Java?  Better yet, some language with a semantic formally =
defined? (I do not know any, but maybe someone does)
>=20
> [Oh, by the way, I *do not want* to start a flame war about which =
language to use.  Rather than fighting over it, I would go with C.  I =
just wanted to share with you some doubts of mine.]
>=20
> Although I agree that errors and ambiguities could creep in the =
mathematical description, maybe it is easier to write a correct and =
unambiguous mathematical description rather than a program code (in =
whatever language is written).
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> 	Jean-Marc
>>=20
>> On 10-09-24 06:06 PM, Roni Even wrote:
>>> 6.5 Description of the codec
>>> The description of the coding algorithm of this Recommendation is =
made in
>>> terms of bit-exact
>>> fixed-point mathematical operations. The ANSI-C code indicated in =
clause 10,
>>> which constitutes an
>>> integral part of this Recommendation, reflects this bit-exact, =
fixed-point
>>> descriptive approach. The
>>> mathematical descriptions of the encoder and decoder can be =
implemented in
>>> other fashions,
>>> possibly leading to a codec implementation which does not comply =
with this
>>> Recommendation.
>>> Therefore, the algorithm description of the ANSI-C code of clause 10 =
shall
>>> take precedence over the
>>> mathematical descriptions whenever discrepancies are found. A set of =
test
>>> signals, which can be
>>> used together with the ANSI-C code in order to verify bit-exactness, =
is
>>> available as an electronic
>>> attachment to this Recommendation.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Roni Even
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Riccardo Bernardini
> DIEGM -- University of Udine
> via delle Scienze 208
> 33100 Udine
> Tel: +39-0432-55-8271
> Fax: +39-0432-55-8251
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> SEMEL (SErvizio di Messaging ELettronico) - CSIT -Universita' di Udine
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stephen.botzko@gmail.com  Fri Oct  1 12:08:16 2010
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:09:01 -0400
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Format for the codec specification
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I agree.  Also, as a practical matter it is quite difficult to write the
mathematical description in an RFC, since you are restricted to plain ASCII
text.

Stephen Botzko

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> These are all valid concerns, but I think people have often found that the
> providing code path is the "least bad way" of specifying codecs.  I did want
> to point out that bugs are found in specs all the time regardless if they
> are C code, english text, or something else. We have an errata process for
> updating RFCs as well as a ways to publish new versions of RFCs. I think
> that is about the best we can do. It's also easy to accidentally write
> ambiguous text like your C example below. Again, this happens in both
> english and C - we just need to do our best to keep an eye open for those
> and fix them. That's one of the advantages of having "running code" - it
> helps discover the corner cases that are under specified. The code tends to
> be "Reference" in that it is written to help illustrate the algorithm and is
> often not the most optimal way to implement the algorithm, may not be thread
> safe, may need changes to be ported to some platforms and so on.  C may not
> be the best for this b
>  ut it has the advantage of behind widely understood - particularly in DSP
> codec circles. We could have a huge argument about what language for a long
> time. I have seen that argument before and it's not fun. In the end, the
> odds we would choose C are extremely high.
>
> Cullen
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote:
>
> > Quoting Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>:
> >
> >> Hi Roni,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the correction on the case of G.719. Despite that, my point
> still stands: there *are* codecs for which the decoder is standardized
> without a bit-exact definition. As long as we define the amount of deviation
> permitted, then there is no problem.
> >>
> >> Oh, and I do agree that the C code should take precedence over the
> mathematical description.
> >
> > A question just came to my mind: what about bugs in the C code?  Suppose,
> for example, that the algorithm requires the computation of a DCT of a block
> of samples and that there is some typo in the constants used in the C code,
> so that what the C code computes is not the DCT, but something similar and
> the difference is such that it really does not matter in most cases, but
> causes very bad performances (when compared with theoretical description) in
> others.  In this case, the precedence would go to the "wrong" description.
> >
> > I agree that the example above is somehow  weak (I just invented it "on
> the spot"), but I hope that spirit is clear: it could happen that despite of
> all attention we could pay, some subtle but important bugs could find their
> way to the C code.  Also I agree that we can always publish an errata or an
> RFC that obsolete the old one.
> >
> > Another doubt about having a C code as a normative reference: could
> portability issues make the code "ambiguous"?  For example, a code could use
> the assumption that int is _exactly_ 32 bits long and short is _exactly_ 16
> bits.  If the same code is run on a processor that uses, say, 64 bits for
> int and 32 for shorts, maybe the results could be different.  Of course, you
> can solve this _specific_ issue by including stdint.h (not available
> everywhere, though) and using types like int16_t, but what I want to point
> out is that we must pay attention to this type of portability issues, if we
> want the meaning of the C code being non-ambiguous.  Another example, much
> more subtle, could be
> >
> >  int foo[3];
> >  int goo, foo=3;
> >  int *pt;
> >
> >  pt  = (int*) foo;
> >  goo = (int) pt;  /* Is really pt==foo? */
> >
> > As far as I know (but I am not a C language-lawyer), the standard grants
> that conversion pointer-to-integer-to-pointer will give the original pointer
> back, but nothing is said about the case above (imagine an architecture
> where addresses can be only even).  Although the code above would work on a
> typical x86 architecture, I would not use it in a code that should play the
> role of a reference.
> >
> > By the way, I agree that the code above is quite silly, but I seen things
> like this used, for example, in multi-thread applications where the
> programmer wanted to pass an integer by using a function that expected a
> pointer.
> >
> > What about using some other language with less portability issues, such
> as Ada or Java?  Better yet, some language with a semantic formally defined?
> (I do not know any, but maybe someone does)
> >
> > [Oh, by the way, I *do not want* to start a flame war about which
> language to use.  Rather than fighting over it, I would go with C.  I just
> wanted to share with you some doubts of mine.]
> >
> > Although I agree that errors and ambiguities could creep in the
> mathematical description, maybe it is easier to write a correct and
> unambiguous mathematical description rather than a program code (in whatever
> language is written).
> >
> >
> >
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >>      Jean-Marc
> >>
> >> On 10-09-24 06:06 PM, Roni Even wrote:
> >>> 6.5 Description of the codec
> >>> The description of the coding algorithm of this Recommendation is made
> in
> >>> terms of bit-exact
> >>> fixed-point mathematical operations. The ANSI-C code indicated in
> clause 10,
> >>> which constitutes an
> >>> integral part of this Recommendation, reflects this bit-exact,
> fixed-point
> >>> descriptive approach. The
> >>> mathematical descriptions of the encoder and decoder can be implemented
> in
> >>> other fashions,
> >>> possibly leading to a codec implementation which does not comply with
> this
> >>> Recommendation.
> >>> Therefore, the algorithm description of the ANSI-C code of clause 10
> shall
> >>> take precedence over the
> >>> mathematical descriptions whenever discrepancies are found. A set of
> test
> >>> signals, which can be
> >>> used together with the ANSI-C code in order to verify bit-exactness, is
> >>> available as an electronic
> >>> attachment to this Recommendation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Roni Even
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> codec mailing list
> >> codec@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Riccardo Bernardini
> > DIEGM -- University of Udine
> > via delle Scienze 208
> > 33100 Udine
> > Tel: +39-0432-55-8271
> > Fax: +39-0432-55-8251
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > SEMEL (SErvizio di Messaging ELettronico) - CSIT -Universita' di Udine
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > codec mailing list
> > codec@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

--001636426b2d6e973e049192ed3e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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I agree.=A0 Also, as a practical matter it is quite difficult to write the =
mathematical description in an RFC, since you are restricted to plain ASCII=
 text.<br><br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct =
1, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Cullen Jennings <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
These are all valid concerns, but I think people have often found that the =
providing code path is the &quot;least bad way&quot; of specifying codecs. =
=A0I did want to point out that bugs are found in specs all the time regard=
less if they are C code, english text, or something else. We have an errata=
 process for updating RFCs as well as a ways to publish new versions of RFC=
s. I think that is about the best we can do. It&#39;s also easy to accident=
ally write ambiguous text like your C example below. Again, this happens in=
 both english and C - we just need to do our best to keep an eye open for t=
hose and fix them. That&#39;s one of the advantages of having &quot;running=
 code&quot; - it helps discover the corner cases that are under specified. =
The code tends to be &quot;Reference&quot; in that it is written to help il=
lustrate the algorithm and is often not the most optimal way to implement t=
he algorithm, may not be thread safe, may need changes to be ported to some=
 platforms and so on. =A0C may not be the best for this b<br>

=A0ut it has the advantage of behind widely understood - particularly in DS=
P codec circles. We could have a huge argument about what language for a lo=
ng time. I have seen that argument before and it&#39;s not fun. In the end,=
 the odds we would choose C are extremely high.<br>

<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Cullen<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On Sep 25, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Riccardo Bernardini wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Quoting Jean-Marc Valin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbro=
oke.ca">jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Roni,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for the correction on the case of G.719. Despite that, my p=
oint still stands: there *are* codecs for which the decoder is standardized=
 without a bit-exact definition. As long as we define the amount of deviati=
on permitted, then there is no problem.<br>

&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Oh, and I do agree that the C code should take precedence over the=
 mathematical description.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A question just came to my mind: what about bugs in the C code? =A0Sup=
pose, for example, that the algorithm requires the computation of a DCT of =
a block of samples and that there is some typo in the constants used in the=
 C code, so that what the C code computes is not the DCT, but something sim=
ilar and the difference is such that it really does not matter in most case=
s, but causes very bad performances (when compared with theoretical descrip=
tion) in others. =A0In this case, the precedence would go to the &quot;wron=
g&quot; description.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree that the example above is somehow =A0weak (I just invented it =
&quot;on the spot&quot;), but I hope that spirit is clear: it could happen =
that despite of all attention we could pay, some subtle but important bugs =
could find their way to the C code. =A0Also I agree that we can always publ=
ish an errata or an RFC that obsolete the old one.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Another doubt about having a C code as a normative reference: could po=
rtability issues make the code &quot;ambiguous&quot;? =A0For example, a cod=
e could use the assumption that int is _exactly_ 32 bits long and short is =
_exactly_ 16 bits. =A0If the same code is run on a processor that uses, say=
, 64 bits for int and 32 for shorts, maybe the results could be different. =
=A0Of course, you can solve this _specific_ issue by including stdint.h (no=
t available everywhere, though) and using types like int16_t, but what I wa=
nt to point out is that we must pay attention to this type of portability i=
ssues, if we want the meaning of the C code being non-ambiguous. =A0Another=
 example, much more subtle, could be<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0int foo[3];<br>
&gt; =A0int goo, foo=3D3;<br>
&gt; =A0int *pt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0pt =A0=3D (int*) foo;<br>
&gt; =A0goo =3D (int) pt; =A0/* Is really pt=3D=3Dfoo? */<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As far as I know (but I am not a C language-lawyer), the standard gran=
ts that conversion pointer-to-integer-to-pointer will give the original poi=
nter back, but nothing is said about the case above (imagine an architectur=
e where addresses can be only even). =A0Although the code above would work =
on a typical x86 architecture, I would not use it in a code that should pla=
y the role of a reference.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; By the way, I agree that the code above is quite silly, but I seen thi=
ngs like this used, for example, in multi-thread applications where the pro=
grammer wanted to pass an integer by using a function that expected a point=
er.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; What about using some other language with less portability issues, suc=
h as Ada or Java? =A0Better yet, some language with a semantic formally def=
ined? (I do not know any, but maybe someone does)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [Oh, by the way, I *do not want* to start a flame war about which lang=
uage to use. =A0Rather than fighting over it, I would go with C. =A0I just =
wanted to share with you some doubts of mine.]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although I agree that errors and ambiguities could creep in the mathem=
atical description, maybe it is easier to write a correct and unambiguous m=
athematical description rather than a program code (in whatever language is=
 written).<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0Jean-Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 10-09-24 06:06 PM, Roni Even wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 6.5 Description of the codec<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The description of the coding algorithm of this Recommendation=
 is made in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; terms of bit-exact<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; fixed-point mathematical operations. The ANSI-C code indicated=
 in clause 10,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; which constitutes an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; integral part of this Recommendation, reflects this bit-exact,=
 fixed-point<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; descriptive approach. The<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mathematical descriptions of the encoder and decoder can be im=
plemented in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; other fashions,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; possibly leading to a codec implementation which does not comp=
ly with this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Recommendation.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Therefore, the algorithm description of the ANSI-C code of cla=
use 10 shall<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; take precedence over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; mathematical descriptions whenever discrepancies are found. A =
set of test<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; signals, which can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; used together with the ANSI-C code in order to verify bit-exac=
tness, is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; available as an electronic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; attachment to this Recommendation.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Roni Even<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; codec mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Riccardo Bernardini<br>
&gt; DIEGM -- University of Udine<br>
&gt; via delle Scienze 208<br>
&gt; 33100 Udine<br>
&gt; Tel: +39-0432-55-8271<br>
&gt; Fax: +39-0432-55-8251<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; SEMEL (SErvizio di Messaging ELettronico) - CSIT -Universita&#39; di U=
dine<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; codec mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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On Oct 1, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:

> 1) The code will be in the appendix of the draft base64 encoded. We =
can sort out later if it is gziped tar file of whatever but it will be =
some easy to extract format. This has been done on other documents. I =
have talked to the AD about this before. I have not talked to RFC Ed but =
do not foresee any issues there.=20


I'd like to encourage people interested in this point to look at =
Appendix B of RFC 4474.=20

http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4474.txt


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Subject: Re: [codec] Summary of codec specification - Code in RFC
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There been a bit of discussion suggesting that we should put into the =
draft both the machine readable base 64 version in that is easy to =
extract, and a version in human readable text that is easy for people to =
read. This seems like a reasonable idea to me. Just to get a rough idea =
of what this would look like, I took the current GIT repository and had =
a look at the code in it. It' a bit over 50k lines including both =
encoder and decoder. You get 48 lines of real text per page of RFC so =
the human readable version would be over a 1000 pages. If you take the =
code, tar it, gzip it, and base64 encode it, you get a bit over 180 =
pages. This sounds big but given it's some bits on a web server, I don't =
particularly see any problem with it. I also have no idea how the =
repository compares to what would be needed to specify the normative =
parts of the decoder. I may have including in the 50k lines of code all =
kinds of stuff that was not needed.=20

Cullen


On Oct 2, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:

>=20
> On Oct 1, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>=20
>> 1) The code will be in the appendix of the draft base64 encoded. We =
can sort out later if it is gziped tar file of whatever but it will be =
some easy to extract format. This has been done on other documents. I =
have talked to the AD about this before. I have not talked to RFC Ed but =
do not foresee any issues there.=20
>=20
>=20
> I'd like to encourage people interested in this point to look at =
Appendix B of RFC 4474.=20
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4474.txt
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stewe@stewe.org  Sat Oct  2 15:32:01 2010
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From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: "fluffy@cisco.com" <fluffy@cisco.com>, <codec@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Summary of codec specification - Code in RFC
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As said before, putting base64 code into an RFC makes sense to me.  However,
I would definitely put it into its own RFC (which would be standards track)
and not into an appendix of the same document.  The versioning problem seems
to be less an issue than the trees that will fall if people "print all" the
RFC in question.  So please leave the textual description in another
document.  

Logic suggests that this "human readable" document would be informational,
as the code RFC prevails in case of errors.  However, I don't mind being
slightly illogical here and call it standards track as well.  The document
could also certain code pieces in such cases where a textual description in
English with ASCII fixed width fonts may be to cumbersome.

Someone mentioned the "errata" process for fixing errors.  That process is
not going to work overly well with an base64 encoded zip file... But I don't
consider that a major problem--rather an incentive to get our stuff right
the first time.

Stephan



On 10.2.2010 13:21 , "fluffy@cisco.com" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

> 
> There been a bit of discussion suggesting that we should put into the draft
> both the machine readable base 64 version in that is easy to extract, and a
> version in human readable text that is easy for people to read. This seems
> like a reasonable idea to me. Just to get a rough idea of what this would look
> like, I took the current GIT repository and had a look at the code in it. It'
> a bit over 50k lines including both encoder and decoder. You get 48 lines of
> real text per page of RFC so the human readable version would be over a 1000
> pages. If you take the code, tar it, gzip it, and base64 encode it, you get a
> bit over 180 pages. This sounds big but given it's some bits on a web server,
> I don't particularly see any problem with it. I also have no idea how the
> repository compares to what would be needed to specify the normative parts of
> the decoder. I may have including in the 50k lines of code all kinds of stuff
> that was not needed.
> 
> Cullen
> 
> 
> On Oct 2, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Oct 1, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>> 
>>> 1) The code will be in the appendix of the draft base64 encoded. We can sort
>>> out later if it is gziped tar file of whatever but it will be some easy to
>>> extract format. This has been done on other documents. I have talked to the
>>> AD about this before. I have not talked to RFC Ed but do not foresee any
>>> issues there. 
>> 
>> 
>> I'd like to encourage people interested in this point to look at Appendix B
>> of RFC 4474. 
>> 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4474.txt
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Sat Oct  2 15:44:05 2010
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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 18:44:48 -0400
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Summary of codec specification - Code in RFC
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I have serious problems with a standards track RFC whose normative 
content can not be read by a human being without additional tools.
I also have serious conceptual problems with an RFC whose normative 
content, in human readable form, is 1,000 pages.

I am not objecting to publishing code in RFCs.  That is something we do 
frequently.  I am not even objecting to including base64 encoded gzip 
code, as informational appendices in an RFC.
However, it seems to me that treating base64 gzip code as normative in 
an RFC is distinctly bending the rules for RFC publication.  That text 
can not be editted by the RFC Editors.  It can not be subject to 
erratta.  And it can not be read as meaningful plain ascii according to 
the spirit of our publication rules.

Yes, we have once in a great while published RFCs with tables on the 
order of this long.  It was difficult, but in fact the content was 
carefully reviewed.

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

PS: If the code were a reasonable length, publishing the text of the 
code as normative, and the base64 gzip as informative would seem to me 
to be a very good way to have clear normative code in an RFC while 
making it easy to use the code.

On 10/2/2010 6:32 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
> As said before, putting base64 code into an RFC makes sense to me.  However,
> I would definitely put it into its own RFC (which would be standards track)
> and not into an appendix of the same document.  The versioning problem seems
> to be less an issue than the trees that will fall if people "print all" the
> RFC in question.  So please leave the textual description in another
> document.
>
> Logic suggests that this "human readable" document would be informational,
> as the code RFC prevails in case of errors.  However, I don't mind being
> slightly illogical here and call it standards track as well.  The document
> could also certain code pieces in such cases where a textual description in
> English with ASCII fixed width fonts may be to cumbersome.
>
> Someone mentioned the "errata" process for fixing errors.  That process is
> not going to work overly well with an base64 encoded zip file... But I don't
> consider that a major problem--rather an incentive to get our stuff right
> the first time.
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
> On 10.2.2010 13:21 , "fluffy@cisco.com"<fluffy@cisco.com>  wrote:
>
>>
>> There been a bit of discussion suggesting that we should put into the draft
>> both the machine readable base 64 version in that is easy to extract, and a
>> version in human readable text that is easy for people to read. This seems
>> like a reasonable idea to me. Just to get a rough idea of what this would look
>> like, I took the current GIT repository and had a look at the code in it. It'
>> a bit over 50k lines including both encoder and decoder. You get 48 lines of
>> real text per page of RFC so the human readable version would be over a 1000
>> pages. If you take the code, tar it, gzip it, and base64 encode it, you get a
>> bit over 180 pages. This sounds big but given it's some bits on a web server,
>> I don't particularly see any problem with it. I also have no idea how the
>> repository compares to what would be needed to specify the normative parts of
>> the decoder. I may have including in the 50k lines of code all kinds of stuff
>> that was not needed.
>>
>> Cullen
>>
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 1, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1) The code will be in the appendix of the draft base64 encoded. We can sort
>>>> out later if it is gziped tar file of whatever but it will be some easy to
>>>> extract format. This has been done on other documents. I have talked to the
>>>> AD about this before. I have not talked to RFC Ed but do not foresee any
>>>> issues there.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to encourage people interested in this point to look at Appendix B
>>> of RFC 4474.
>>>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4474.txt
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

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Subject: Re: [codec] Summary of codec specification - Code in RFC
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On 2010-10-3, at 0:32, Stephan Wenger wrote:
> As said before, putting base64 code into an RFC makes sense to me.  =
However,
> I would definitely put it into its own RFC (which would be standards =
track)
> and not into an appendix of the same document.  The versioning problem =
seems
> to be less an issue than the trees that will fall if people "print =
all" the
> RFC in question.  So please leave the textual description in another
> document. =20

FWIW, this was the approach we followed with the XDR code for NFS 4.1: =
RFC 5661 has the spec text and RFC 5662 has the XDR (in this case, as =
plain text).

Lars=

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From erik.norvell@ericsson.com  Fri Oct  8 04:40:16 2010
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From: Erik Norvell <erik.norvell@ericsson.com>
To: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 13:40:42 +0200
Thread-Topic: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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Hi all,

Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and unnece=
ssary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered technol=
ogy. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can be i=
mplemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was establ=
ished. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.

The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec without a=
ny usage restrictions.
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
  There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widely
  implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the presence
  of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements to pay
  royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, or meet
  other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered
  adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guidelines =
should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines. Pre=
ferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is that the=
 codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent Discl=
osure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaration, ha=
s an option a) reading "No Licenses required for Implementers" (http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc3905). I suggest the guidelines should state that all co=
ntributors should comply with this option. As a further clarification of th=
is option a) to meet the intentions behind the establishment of the WG the =
guidelines should expressly request that "no implementer shall be obliged t=
o make a compensation of any kind to the holder of any patent covering the =
codec or be obliged to make any undertaking towards to the holder of any pa=
tent covering the codec".

Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on the pa=
tent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IETF WGs=
 and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but conside=
ring the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional requireme=
nts can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the list of en=
cumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.

Best regards,
Erik=20


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=
onathan Rosenberg
Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item

At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines docume=
nt as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over whether=
 it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative documents=
 over the next 5 week period.

Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporated int=
o the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a few ope=
n issues which still require some discussion.

However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items to be =
closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed, discus=
sion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a reasonable =
foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of alternative docume=
nts to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting this as a worki=
ng group item in two weeks time.

If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alternative =
document.

Thanks,
Jonathan R.
--=20
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) 465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net


_______________________________________________
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From ron.even.tlv@gmail.com  Fri Oct  8 06:41:21 2010
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From: "Roni Even" <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>
To: "'Stephan Wenger'" <stewe@stewe.org>, "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, <codec@ietf.org>
References: <4C9CEE29.1090600@jdrosen.net> <C8C29CCE.24A7D%stewe@stewe.org>
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 15:39:36 +0200
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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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Hi,
I agree with Stephan's comments and have one other question

The text currently says: 
"Once IETF participants agree that the codec being developed meets
       the requirements (e.g., via a working group last call), IETF
       participants can begin the task of characterizing the codec.  The
       characterization process is described under Section 3."

Does it mean that the codec may be published without doing characterization
test before. Reading the draft it looks like these are the tests that will
verify that the codec is within the requirements. Maybe you should add some
text saying that the there will be a working group last call after
characterization.


Roni Even


> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Stephan Wenger
> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:22 AM
> To: Jonathan Rosenberg; codec@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG
> item
> 
> >
> > If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an
> > alternative document.
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> My preference would be to resolve strategic issues such as text/code
> being
> normative (where it seems we are very close to consensus: code it
> should
> be), bit-exact or not (and what are the conformance points if its not
> bit-exactness), and characterization gating, before accepting the draft
> as a
> WG item.  That said, I'm willing to support the adoption of the draft
> as WG
> item even in the absence of this consensus, but only under the
> following two
> conditions:
> 
> 1. The draft clearly states that there is no consensus yet on the
> subject of
> bit-exactness.
> 2. The draft clearly states that there is no consensus yet on the
> subject of
> characterization gating (in the sense of Jonathan's email sent a couple
> of
> hours ago).
> 
> These conditions represent my points 11 and 15 of my email sent to this
> list
> on August 21, on neither of which I'm in agreement with the current
> language
> (or the current intention), nor I have seen any movement on the
> proponents
> on the other side towards a compromise/consensus position.  I don't
> have the
> bandwidth this week or next to suggest alternative language, but will
> try to
> do so within the two week time window Jonathan proposed.
> 
> In order to move things forward: in both cases, I have no problems if
> the
> current text stays in, as long as it is made unambiguously clear that
> this
> is not a consensus position, but rather one possible option for a
> resolution
> of the question, and that other options are expressedly solicited.
> 
> The reason for these requests are hopefully obvious: a WG draft should
> represent the consensus of the WG, and should not contain non-consensus
> positions without disclaimers.
> 
> Stephan
> 
> 
> 
> On 9.24.2010 11:30 , "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net> wrote:
> 
> > At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines
> > document as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns
> > over whether it was in the right direction. We put out a call for
> > alternative documents over the next 5 week period.
> >
> > Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was
> incorporated
> > into the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including
> a
> > few open issues which still require some discussion.
> >
> > However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items
> to
> > be closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item.
> Indeed,
> > discussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a
> > reasonable foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of
> > alternative documents to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on
> > adopting this as a working group item in two weeks time.
> >
> > If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an
> > alternative document.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jonathan R.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From anisse.taleb@huawei.com  Fri Oct  8 08:21:34 2010
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From: Anisse Taleb <anisse.taleb@huawei.com>
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Dear Michael,

Just a few comments.

The TSP database is indeed quite extensive, however, if I am not mistaken, it contains English language only (?).

Regarding the balancing of items, one of the main use cases of this codec are conversational applications, as such, the testing should include as much speech items as possible in different conditions, including noisy, reverberant rooms, error conditions/packet losses and more. Furthermore, It is well known that codecs performance may depend on the language of the items used in testing and it is not unheard-of to have a codec pass a quality performance requirement in a certain language and utterly fails in some others. The need for language diversity in testing is even more important given the intended wide distribution of the codec.

Kind regards,
/Anisse

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Knappe
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:55 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] McGill university speech database

Just received permission from Dr. Peter Kabal at McGill University to use their 1400 utterance, 24 different talker (12 male, 12 female) Harvard sentence speech database for our codec testing efforts in the IETF codec WG. Includes the original 48 kHz files. My preference is just to put the McGill link to the 539 MB CD ISO image file up on the codec wiki, if that sounds ok with everyone I will get final permission to post the link from Dr. Kabal and get them up on the wiki asap.

Next step is to work on getting rights to representative music content. A capella vocals (e.g. Tom's Diner) , orchestral crescendo's, castanets, solo violin, jazz trumpet/ensembles, rock/electronica etc would all be good to include for testing, please reply with any suggestions.

Thanks to Jean-Marc for the pointer to Dr. Kabal and the speech database!

Cheers,

Mike
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 08:30:34 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] IETF78 codec WG session audio archive
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For everyone=92s reference, here is the link to the IETF78 codec WG session=
 audio archive:

http://nagasaki.bogus.com/ietf78/ietf78-ch8-mon-noon.mp3

Cheers,

Mike




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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 08:49:21 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] Codec requirements discussion summary from IETF78
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Below is a brief summary of the discussion Q&A around the requirements doc =
held at IETF78. Please refer to the audio ( http://nagasaki.bogus.com/ietf7=
8/ietf78-ch8-mon-noon.mp3) and jabber archives for details.

Jean-Marc and Koen, can you update the requirements doc to reflect consensu=
s achieved on the 4 points below?

Thanks,

Mike

IETF 78 requirements discussion summary
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


 1.  Q: should we have SDP selectable audio bandwidths? Discussion: RTP pay=
load formats (sample rates and channel ordering) should be discussed in AVT=
. Need to come up with specific proposal(s) for the negotiation of preferre=
d bitrate / internal sample rate. One suggestion was simply provisioning in=
vites with the highest preferred rate for the codec in the SDP offer as fir=
st preference, with lower bit rates in succession as desired.
 2.  Q: what is a reasonable upper bit rate for the codec? Discussion: 128 =
kbps as an upper bit rate limit seems to be reasonable (further clarificati=
on needed =96 is that 128 kbps per channel?), will continue codec developme=
nt and see what bit rates are offered before any decisions are made on allo=
wable bit rate ranges
 3.  Q: shall we implement sample rate layering? Discussion: prototype code=
c in discussion already implements a two layer scheme
 4.  Q: shall we provide a bit exact implementation? Discussion: consensus =
to be optional with no requirement for bit exactness, where interest lay in=
 the optional specification of a bit exact implementation as one possible i=
mplementation among other bit compatible versions
 5.  Q: shall we provide a joint stereo mode? Discussion: consensus as high=
ly desirable where it provides a bit-rate reduction benefit (or conversely =
a quality improvement at the same bit-rate) at reasonable computational cos=
t. Some anecdotal evidence of 35% or better bit-rate savings noted, further=
 study needed.
 6.  Q: shall we provide a low-delay mode? Discussion: consensus as desirab=
le, already implemented as a mode in prototype codec as 5 ms total (2.5 ms =
look-ahead + 2.5 ms frame size)
 7.  Q: shall we provide a basic packet-loss concealment mechanism? Discuss=
ion: consensus that an informative version of the PLC mechanism be included=
 in the codec specification, with the ability to replace that mechanism wit=
h another implementation.

From mknappe@juniper.net  Fri Oct  8 09:06:15 2010
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From: Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
To: Anisse Taleb <anisse.taleb@huawei.com>, "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:01:05 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec]  McGill university speech database
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Anisse,

Agreed that language diversity in the source material is a necessity, I am
working on obtaining additional language samples. Environmental simulation
is also highly desirable. There will certainly be environmental diversity i=
n
the listening environment in the uncontrolled, widescale mushra testing tha=
t
we are working on setting up, but let's look at a few representative
conditions in the samples themselves. It would be nice to provide
representative noise / reverb additive in the semi-formal controlled
testing, although I am concerned about the rapid increase in test case
permutations and listener fatigue with the limited subject pool size we'll
have available. Your suggestions here are certainly welcome. Also agree tha=
t
PLC stressing packet loss conditions do need to be included.

Cheers,

Mike


On 10/8/10 8:22 AM, "Anisse Taleb" <anisse.taleb@huawei.com> wrote:

> Dear Michael,
>=20
> Just a few comments.
>=20
> The TSP database is indeed quite extensive, however, if I am not mistaken=
, it
> contains English language only (?).
>=20
> Regarding the balancing of items, one of the main use cases of this codec=
 are
> conversational applications, as such, the testing should include as much
> speech items as possible in different conditions, including noisy, reverb=
erant
> rooms, error conditions/packet losses and more. Furthermore, It is well k=
nown
> that codecs performance may depend on the language of the items used in
> testing and it is not unheard-of to have a codec pass a quality performan=
ce
> requirement in a certain language and utterly fails in some others. The n=
eed
> for language diversity in testing is even more important given the intend=
ed
> wide distribution of the codec.
>=20
> Kind regards,
> /Anisse
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Michael Knappe
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:55 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] McGill university speech database
>=20
> Just received permission from Dr. Peter Kabal at McGill University to use
> their 1400 utterance, 24 different talker (12 male, 12 female) Harvard
> sentence speech database for our codec testing efforts in the IETF codec =
WG.
> Includes the original 48 kHz files. My preference is just to put the McGi=
ll
> link to the 539 MB CD ISO image file up on the codec wiki, if that sounds=
 ok
> with everyone I will get final permission to post the link from Dr. Kabal=
 and
> get them up on the wiki asap.
>=20
> Next step is to work on getting rights to representative music content. A
> capella vocals (e.g. Tom's Diner) , orchestral crescendo's, castanets, so=
lo
> violin, jazz trumpet/ensembles, rock/electronica etc would all be good to
> include for testing, please reply with any suggestions.
>=20
> Thanks to Jean-Marc for the pointer to Dr. Kabal and the speech database!
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Sun Oct 10 17:53:27 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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Hi,

The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter
on IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither
the charter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the
discussion on the earlier versions of the draft that differed from the
charter, it seems like the current text is still the one that generates
the least objection. So unless there is wide consensus on an alternate
text that doesn't contradict the current charter, I think we can live
with the current text.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc



On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and unnecessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered technology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can be implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was established. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.
> 
> The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec without any usage restrictions.
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters
> ==============
>   There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widely
>   implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the presence
>   of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements to pay
>   royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, or meet
>   other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered
>   adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.
> ==============
> 
> Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guidelines should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines. Preferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is that the codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent Disclosure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaration, has an option a) reading "No Licenses required for Implementers" (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905). I suggest the guidelines should state that all contributors should comply with this option. As a further clarification of this option a) to meet the intentions behind the establishment of the WG the guidelines should expressly request that "no implementer shall be obliged to make a compensation of any kind to the holder of any patent covering the codec or be obliged to make any undertaking towards to the holder of any patent covering the codec".
> 
> Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on the patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IETF WGs and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but considering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional requirements can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the list of encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.
> 
> Best regards,
> Erik 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg
> Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
> 
> At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines document as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over whether it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative documents over the next 5 week period.
> 
> Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporated into the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a few open issues which still require some discussion.
> 
> However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items to be closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed, discussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a reasonable foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of alternative documents to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting this as a working group item in two weeks time.
> 
> If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alternative document.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jonathan R.

From stewe@stewe.org  Mon Oct 11 08:34:09 2010
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+1.
Beyond that, Erik, my feeling is that parts of your proposal, if
implemented, would have antitrust issues.  I'm willing to discuss those in
private if need be.
Stephan



On 10.10.2010 17:54 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter
> on IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither
> the charter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the
> discussion on the earlier versions of the draft that differed from the
> charter, it seems like the current text is still the one that generates
> the least objection. So unless there is wide consensus on an alternate
> text that doesn't contradict the current charter, I think we can live
> with the current text.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jean-Marc
> 
> 
> 
> On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and
>> unnecessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered
>> technology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can
>> be implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was
>> established. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.
>> 
>> The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec without any
>> usage restrictions.
>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters
>> ==============
>>   There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widely
>>   implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the presence
>>   of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements to pay
>>   royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, or meet
>>   other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered
>>   adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.
>> ==============
>> 
>> Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guidelines
>> should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines.
>> Preferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is that
>> the codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent
>> Disclosure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaration,
>> has an option a) reading "No Licenses required for Implementers"
>> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905). I suggest the guidelines should state
>> that all contributors should comply with this option. As a further
>> clarification of this option a) to meet the intentions behind the
>> establishment of the WG the guidelines should expressly request that "no
>> implementer shall be obliged to make a compensation of any kind to the holder
>> of any patent covering the codec or be obliged to make any undertaking
>> towards to the holder of any patent covering the codec".
>> 
>> Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on the
>> patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IETF WGs
>> and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but
>> considering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional
>> requirements can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the
>> list of encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Erik 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Jonathan Rosenberg
>> Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30
>> To: codec@ietf.org
>> Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
>> 
>> At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines document
>> as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over whether it
>> was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative documents over
>> the next 5 week period.
>> 
>> Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporated into
>> the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a few open
>> issues which still require some discussion.
>> 
>> However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items to be
>> closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed,
>> discussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a
>> reasonable foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of
>> alternative documents to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting
>> this as a working group item in two weeks time.
>> 
>> If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alternative
>> document.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan R.
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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--0016e6d625ae7dffb80492592b86
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+1

I think the IPR stuff has already been discussed at length, and was worked
out adequately in the charter.  It'd be best to move on to actually
completing the project...

Stephen Botzko

On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <
jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter
> on IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither
> the charter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the
> discussion on the earlier versions of the draft that differed from the
> charter, it seems like the current text is still the one that generates
> the least objection. So unless there is wide consensus on an alternate
> text that doesn't contradict the current charter, I think we can live
> with the current text.
>
> Cheers,
>
>        Jean-Marc
>
>
>
> On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and
> unnecessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered
> technology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec
> can be implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was
> established. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.
> >
> > The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec without
> any usage restrictions.
> > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters
> > ==============
> >   There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widely
> >   implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the presence
> >   of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements to pay
> >   royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, or
> meet
> >   other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered
> >   adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.
> > ==============
> >
> > Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the
> guidelines should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF
> guidelines. Preferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the
> intention is that the codec should be freely available to any implementer.
> The IETF Patent Disclosure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI
> Licensing Declaration, has an option a) reading "No Licenses required for
> Implementers" (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905). I suggest the
> guidelines should state that all contributors should comply with this
> option. As a further clarification of this option a) to meet the intentions
> behind the establishment of the WG the guidelines should expressly request
> that "no implementer shall be obliged to make a compensation of any kind to
> the holder of any patent covering the codec or be obliged to make any
> undertaking towards to the holder of any patent covering the codec".
> >
> > Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on the
> patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IETF
> WGs and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but
> considering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional
> requirements can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the
> list of encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Erik
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Jonathan Rosenberg
> > Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30
> > To: codec@ietf.org
> > Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
> >
> > At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines
> document as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over
> whether it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative
> documents over the next 5 week period.
> >
> > Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporated
> into the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a few
> open issues which still require some discussion.
> >
> > However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items to
> be closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed,
> discussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a
> reasonable foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of
> alternative documents to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on
> adopting this as a working group item in two weeks time.
> >
> > If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an
> alternative document.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jonathan R.
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

--0016e6d625ae7dffb80492592b86
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1<br><br>I think the IPR stuff has already been discussed at length, and w=
as worked out adequately in the charter.=A0 It&#39;d be best to move on to =
actually completing the project...<br><br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca">jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.c=
a</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-le=
ft: 1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter<br>
on IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither<br>
the charter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the<br>
discussion on the earlier versions of the draft that differed from the<br>
charter, it seems like the current text is still the one that generates<br>
the least objection. So unless there is wide consensus on an alternate<br>
text that doesn&#39;t contradict the current charter, I think we can live<b=
r>
with the current text.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Jean-Marc<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and u=
nnecessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered te=
chnology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can=
 be implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was e=
stablished. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.=
<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec with=
out any usage restrictions.<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters" target=3D"_blank">=
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters</a><br>
&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt; =A0 There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widel=
y<br>
&gt; =A0 implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the pres=
ence<br>
&gt; =A0 of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements t=
o pay<br>
&gt; =A0 royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, o=
r meet<br>
&gt; =A0 other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered<=
br>
&gt; =A0 adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.<br>
&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guidel=
ines should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines=
. Preferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is tha=
t the codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent =
Disclosure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaratio=
n, has an option a) reading &quot;No Licenses required for Implementers&quo=
t; (<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905</a>). I suggest the guidelines should state th=
at all contributors should comply with this option. As a further clarificat=
ion of this option a) to meet the intentions behind the establishment of th=
e WG the guidelines should expressly request that &quot;no implementer shal=
l be obliged to make a compensation of any kind to the holder of any patent=
 covering the codec or be obliged to make any undertaking towards to the ho=
lder of any patent covering the codec&quot;.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on t=
he patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IET=
F WGs and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but co=
nsidering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional requ=
irements can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the list =
of encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Erik<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg<br>
&gt; Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines d=
ocument as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over wh=
ether it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative docu=
ments over the next 5 week period.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporate=
d into the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a fe=
w open issues which still require some discussion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items t=
o be closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed, d=
iscussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a reason=
able foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of alternative d=
ocuments to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting this as a =
working group item in two weeks time.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alterna=
tive document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Jonathan R.<br>
</div></div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">_____________________________=
__________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--0016e6d625ae7dffb80492592b86--

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From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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+1 
:) 
koen. 



From: "Stephen Botzko" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com> 
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca> 
Cc: codec@ietf.org 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:39:46 AM 
Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item 

+1 

I think the IPR stuff has already been discussed at length, and was worked out adequately in the charter. It'd be best to move on to actually completing the project... 

Stephen Botzko 


On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jean-Marc Valin < jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca > wrote: 


Hi, 

The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter 
on IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither 
the charter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the 
discussion on the earlier versions of the draft that differed from the 
charter, it seems like the current text is still the one that generates 
the least objection. So unless there is wide consensus on an alternate 
text that doesn't contradict the current charter, I think we can live 
with the current text. 

Cheers, 

Jean-Marc 






On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote: 
> Hi all, 
> 
> Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and unnecessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered technology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can be implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was established. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation. 
> 
> The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec without any usage restrictions. 
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters 
> ============== 
> There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widely 
> implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the presence 
> of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements to pay 
> royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, or meet 
> other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered 
> adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications. 
> ============== 
> 
> Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guidelines should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines. Preferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is that the codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent Disclosure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaration, has an option a) reading "No Licenses required for Implementers" ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905 ). I suggest the guidelines should state that all contributors should comply with this option. As a further clarification of this option a) to meet the intentions behind the establishment of the WG the guidelines should expressly request that "no implementer shall be obliged to make a compensation of any kind to the holder of any patent covering the codec or be obliged to make any undertaking towards to the holder of any patent covering the codec". 
> 
> Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on the patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IETF WGs and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but considering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional requirements can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the list of encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid. 
> 
> Best regards, 
> Erik 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto: codec-bounces@ietf.org ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg 
> Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30 
> To: codec@ietf.org 
> Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item 
> 
> At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines document as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over whether it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative documents over the next 5 week period. 
> 
> Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporated into the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a few open issues which still require some discussion. 
> 
> However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items to be closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed, discussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a reasonable foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of alternative documents to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting this as a working group item in two weeks time. 
> 
> If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alternative document. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Jonathan R. 



_______________________________________________ 
codec mailing list 
codec@ietf.org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec 


_______________________________________________ 
codec mailing list 
codec@ietf.org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec 

------=_Part_714651_323704586.1286828435111
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><=
div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
>+1 <br>:)<br>koen.<br><br><br><hr><b>From: </b>"Stephen Botzko" &lt;stephe=
n.botzko@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>To: </b>"Jean-Marc Valin" &lt;jean-marc.valin@=
usherbrooke.ca&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>codec@ietf.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, Oct=
ober 11, 2010 8:39:46 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Adopting draft-vali=
n-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item<br><br>+1<br><br>I think the IPR stuff h=
as already been discussed at length, and was worked out adequately in the c=
harter.&nbsp; It'd be best to move on to actually completing the project...=
<br><br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca" target=3D"_blank">jean-marc.v=
alin@usherbrooke.ca</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204=
, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter<br>
on IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither<br>
the charter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the<br>
discussion on the earlier versions of the draft that differed from the<br>
charter, it seems like the current text is still the one that generates<br>
the least objection. So unless there is wide consensus on an alternate<br>
text that doesn't contradict the current charter, I think we can live<br>
with the current text.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Jean-Marc<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and u=
nnecessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered te=
chnology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can=
 be implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was e=
stablished. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.=
<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec with=
out any usage restrictions.<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters" target=3D"_blank">=
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters</a><br>
&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt; &nbsp; There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be wi=
dely<br>
&gt; &nbsp; implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the p=
resence<br>
&gt; &nbsp; of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirement=
s to pay<br>
&gt; &nbsp; royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement=
, or meet<br>
&gt; &nbsp; other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hinder=
ed<br>
&gt; &nbsp; adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.<=
br>
&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guidel=
ines should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines=
. Preferably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is tha=
t the codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent =
Disclosure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaratio=
n, has an option a) reading "No Licenses required for Implementers" (<a hre=
f=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3905" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.iet=
f.org/html/rfc3905</a>). I suggest the guidelines should state that all con=
tributors should comply with this option. As a further clarification of thi=
s option a) to meet the intentions behind the establishment of the WG the g=
uidelines should expressly request that "no implementer shall be obliged to=
 make a compensation of any kind to the holder of any patent covering the c=
odec or be obliged to make any undertaking towards to the holder of any pat=
ent covering the codec".<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on t=
he patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IET=
F WGs and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but co=
nsidering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional requ=
irements can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the list =
of encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Erik<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">code=
c-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg=
<br>
&gt; Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org=
</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines d=
ocument as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over wh=
ether it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative docu=
ments over the next 5 week period.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporate=
d into the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a fe=
w open issues which still require some discussion.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items t=
o be closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed, d=
iscussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a reason=
able foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of alternative d=
ocuments to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting this as a =
working group item in two weeks time.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alterna=
tive document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Jonathan R.<br>
</div></div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">_____________________________=
__________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>codec mailing list<b=
r>codec@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<br></div></=
body></html>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Codec Requirements
	Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
	Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2010-10-12

This document provides specific requirements for an Internet audio
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and packet loss robustness, as well as other desirable properties.

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There's also an updated version of the guidelines draft.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-12 06:45 PM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 
> 	Title           : Codec Requirements
> 	Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 21
> 	Date            : 2010-10-12
> 
> This document provides specific requirements for an Internet audio
> codec.  These requirements address quality, sampling rate, bit-rate,
> and packet loss robustness, as well as other desirable properties.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Summary of codec specification - Code in RFC
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These all seem like good points. Let's see if we can figure out a way to =
do plain text split across two drafts and follow the XDR model.=20


On Oct 2, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:

> I have serious problems with a standards track RFC whose normative =
content can not be read by a human being without additional tools.
> I also have serious conceptual problems with an RFC whose normative =
content, in human readable form, is 1,000 pages.
>=20
> I am not objecting to publishing code in RFCs.  That is something we =
do frequently.  I am not even objecting to including base64 encoded gzip =
code, as informational appendices in an RFC.
> However, it seems to me that treating base64 gzip code as normative in =
an RFC is distinctly bending the rules for RFC publication.  That text =
can not be editted by the RFC Editors.  It can not be subject to =
erratta.  And it can not be read as meaningful plain ascii according to =
the spirit of our publication rules.
>=20
> Yes, we have once in a great while published RFCs with tables on the =
order of this long.  It was difficult, but in fact the content was =
carefully reviewed.
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel M. Halpern
>=20
> PS: If the code were a reasonable length, publishing the text of the =
code as normative, and the base64 gzip as informative would seem to me =
to be a very good way to have clear normative code in an RFC while =
making it easy to use the code.
>=20
> On 10/2/2010 6:32 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>> As said before, putting base64 code into an RFC makes sense to me.  =
However,
>> I would definitely put it into its own RFC (which would be standards =
track)
>> and not into an appendix of the same document.  The versioning =
problem seems
>> to be less an issue than the trees that will fall if people "print =
all" the
>> RFC in question.  So please leave the textual description in another
>> document.
>>=20
>> Logic suggests that this "human readable" document would be =
informational,
>> as the code RFC prevails in case of errors.  However, I don't mind =
being
>> slightly illogical here and call it standards track as well.  The =
document
>> could also certain code pieces in such cases where a textual =
description in
>> English with ASCII fixed width fonts may be to cumbersome.
>>=20
>> Someone mentioned the "errata" process for fixing errors.  That =
process is
>> not going to work overly well with an base64 encoded zip file... But =
I don't
>> consider that a major problem--rather an incentive to get our stuff =
right
>> the first time.
>>=20
>> Stephan
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10.2.2010 13:21 , "fluffy@cisco.com"<fluffy@cisco.com>  wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> There been a bit of discussion suggesting that we should put into =
the draft
>>> both the machine readable base 64 version in that is easy to =
extract, and a
>>> version in human readable text that is easy for people to read. This =
seems
>>> like a reasonable idea to me. Just to get a rough idea of what this =
would look
>>> like, I took the current GIT repository and had a look at the code =
in it. It'
>>> a bit over 50k lines including both encoder and decoder. You get 48 =
lines of
>>> real text per page of RFC so the human readable version would be =
over a 1000
>>> pages. If you take the code, tar it, gzip it, and base64 encode it, =
you get a
>>> bit over 180 pages. This sounds big but given it's some bits on a =
web server,
>>> I don't particularly see any problem with it. I also have no idea =
how the
>>> repository compares to what would be needed to specify the normative =
parts of
>>> the decoder. I may have including in the 50k lines of code all kinds =
of stuff
>>> that was not needed.
>>>=20
>>> Cullen
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 2, 2010, at 8:28 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 1, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> 1) The code will be in the appendix of the draft base64 encoded. =
We can sort
>>>>> out later if it is gziped tar file of whatever but it will be some =
easy to
>>>>> extract format. This has been done on other documents. I have =
talked to the
>>>>> AD about this before. I have not talked to RFC Ed but do not =
foresee any
>>>>> issues there.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd like to encourage people interested in this point to look at =
Appendix B
>>>> of RFC 4474.
>>>>=20
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4474.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> codec mailing list
>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20


From erik.norvell@ericsson.com  Fri Oct 15 07:41:30 2010
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From: Erik Norvell <erik.norvell@ericsson.com>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:42:45 +0200
Thread-Topic: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
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Hi,

My suggestion was not to debate the charter nor the IETF policies, but rath=
er to make the guidelines more aligned with them. I realize that parts of m=
y suggestion was strong-worded, such as having contributors complying with =
a "No License option". Still, considering what the charter says about encum=
bered codecs, the guidelines should also reflect this in some way.

I suggest that the following text is added to the guidelines in page 10:

..that require royalties or other encumbrances that would prevent such tech=
nologies from being easy to redistribute and use.[Added text] For the codec=
 to be truly unencumbered, the contributors should adhere to the 'No licens=
e required' option, as expressed in BCP 79 section 6.5: "..c) without the n=
eed to obtain a license from the IPR holder."[\Added text]

Best,
Erik=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]=20
Sent: den 11 oktober 2010 02:54
To: Erik Norvell
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item

Hi,

The current version of the guidelines document mainly cites the charter on =
IPR issues. This makes sense because this draft can change neither the char=
ter, nor any IETF IPR policies. Also, judging from the discussion on the ea=
rlier versions of the draft that differed from the charter, it seems like t=
he current text is still the one that generates the least objection. So unl=
ess there is wide consensus on an alternate text that doesn't contradict th=
e current charter, I think we can live with the current text.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc



On 10-10-08 07:40 AM, Erik Norvell wrote:
> Hi all,
>=20
> Reading the codec guidelines document it still includes arguable and unne=
cessary generic statements on the problems associated with encumbered techn=
ology. The present guidelines do not at all safeguard that the codec can be=
 implemented by anybody as freely as was the intention when the WG was esta=
blished. Royalty-free conditions do not at all mean free implementation.
>=20
> The charter implies that the goal of the WG is to produce a codec without=
 any usage restrictions.
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/codec/charters
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>   There exist codecs that are standardized, but that cannot be widely
>   implemented and easily distributed; according to reports, the presence
>   of various usage restrictions (e.g., in the form of requirements to pay
>   royalty fees, obtain a license, enter into a business agreement, or mee=
t
>   other special conditions imposed by a patent holder) has hindered
>   adoptions of such codecs in interactive Internet applications.
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> Considering these exceptional intentions with the codec WG, the guideline=
s should also be exceptional compared with the customary IETF guidelines. P=
referably, the guidelines should clearly state that the intention is that t=
he codec should be freely available to any implementer. The IETF Patent Dis=
closure and Licensing Declaration template, part VI Licensing Declaration, =
has an option a) reading "No Licenses required for Implementers" (http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc3905). I suggest the guidelines should state that all =
contributors should comply with this option. As a further clarification of =
this option a) to meet the intentions behind the establishment of the WG th=
e guidelines should expressly request that "no implementer shall be obliged=
 to make a compensation of any kind to the holder of any patent covering th=
e codec or be obliged to make any undertaking towards to the holder of any =
patent covering the codec".
>=20
> Admittedly the suggestion really means an exceptional requirement on the =
patent holders which would not at all be adequate in general for all IETF W=
Gs and would provide an exceptional freedom for the implementers, but consi=
dering the exceptional intentions with the WG I believe exceptional require=
ments can be justified. If not, the codec may end up adding to the list of =
encumbered codecs which the WG set out to avoid.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Erik
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Jonathan Rosenberg
> Sent: den 24 september 2010 20:30
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Adopting draft-valin-codec-guidelines-06 as a WG item
>=20
> At the last IETF meeting, we discussed adopting the codec guidelines docu=
ment as a working group item. This did not pass, due to concerns over wheth=
er it was in the right direction. We put out a call for alternative documen=
ts over the next 5 week period.
>=20
> Some text was proposed by Stephan for inclusion, which was incorporated i=
nto the document. Stephan also contributed some comments, including a few o=
pen issues which still require some discussion.
>=20
> However, the chairs feel that it is not necessary for all open items to b=
e closed prior to adopting a document as a working group item. Indeed, disc=
ussion on the content of the document is a good sign that it is a reasonabl=
e foundation for the working group item. Given the lack of alternative docu=
ments to use as a starting point, the chairs plan on adopting this as a wor=
king group item in two weeks time.
>=20
> If you disagree, please speak up - and even better - submit an alternativ=
e document.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Jonathan R.

From root@core3.amsl.com  Fri Oct 15 13:30:03 2010
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
	Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
	Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2010-10-15

This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
speech and audio transmission over the Internet.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt

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From koen.vos@skype.net  Fri Oct 15 13:37:25 2010
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From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
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Subject: [codec] Harmony became Opus
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Hi Folks,

We've now chosen the final name for the SILK/CELT hybrid codec: Opus.  

It was temporarily called Harmony, but we decided against that in the end - sorry for the confusion :)

A draft was submitted to reflect the new name.

best,
koen.

From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Oct 18 15:20:08 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
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Hi,

just a few comments from regarding the guidelines draft (see =
attachment). I made some minor improvements to increase the clarity.

I would suggest to split Section 4 into two. One section on how to =
describe the codec and its source code and a second on suggestion what =
to specify and what not to specify.

Also, I added a section on how to collaborate with other WGs and on what =
topics the collaboration shall take place. It might be useful to plan =
when go for a bar Bof with those guys...

With best regards,

 Christian=20


---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:09 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt

There's also an updated version of the guidelines draft.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-12 06:45 PM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working =
Group of the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Codec Requirements
> 	Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 21
> 	Date            : 2010-10-12
>=20
> This document provides specific requirements for an Internet audio
> codec.  These requirements address quality, sampling rate, bit-rate,
> and packet loss robustness, as well as other desirable properties.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Oct 18 15:22:42 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Jean-Marc Valin'" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>, <codec@ietf.org>
References: <20101012224501.B93503A6A22@core3.amsl.com> <4CB514BE.6080104@usherbrooke.ca>
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 00:23:55 +0200
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CB6F23.EDADCD00
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Hi,

just a few comments from regarding the guidelines draft (see =
attachment). I made some minor improvements to increase the clarity.

I would suggest to split Section 4 into two. One section on how to =
describe the codec and its source code and a second on suggestion what =
to specify and what not to specify.

Also, I added a section on how to collaborate with other WGs and on what =
topics the collaboration shall take place. It might be useful to plan =
when go for a bar Bof with those guys...

With best regards,

 Christian=20


---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Jean-Marc Valin
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:09 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt

There's also an updated version of the guidelines draft.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-12 06:45 PM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working =
Group of the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Codec Requirements
> 	Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 21
> 	Date            : 2010-10-12
>=20
> This document provides specific requirements for an Internet audio
> codec.  These requirements address quality, sampling rate, bit-rate,
> and packet loss robustness, as well as other desirable properties.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CB6F23.EDADCD00
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------=_NextPart_000_0013_01CB6F23.EDADCD00--


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Hello,

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.

-Pascal


From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Mon Oct 18 19:26:36 2010
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Thread-Topic: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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From: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
To: <Pochol@WebfootGames.com>, <codec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has =
pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted =
as an IETF standard.

    Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
=20
Hello,

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.

-Pascal

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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<TITLE>RE: [codec] Opus codec licensing</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Opus is available under the BSD license. As for =
patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-free once the =
codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<BR>
To: codec@ietf.org<BR>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about<BR>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these =
codecs.<BR>
<BR>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as<BR>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software =
and<BR>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as =
Opus<BR>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.<BR>
<BR>
-Pascal<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
codec@ietf.org<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/codec</A><BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
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From Pochol@WebfootGames.com  Tue Oct 19 06:32:58 2010
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On 9:26:24 pm 10/18/10 "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote:
> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has
> pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted
> as an IETF standard.

Great. I know it's still a draft now but how long do you roughly expect
before it is accepted as a standard? Are we talking weeks? months? Or years?

-Pascal


From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Oct 19 07:14:31 2010
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On 10/19/10 7:52 AM, Pascal Pochol wrote:
> On 9:26:24 pm 10/18/10 "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> =
wrote:
>> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has
>> pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted=

>> as an IETF standard.
>=20
> Great. I know it's still a draft now but how long do you roughly expect=

> before it is accepted as a standard? Are we talking weeks? months? Or y=
ears?

Definitely not weeks. Probably months. Hopefully not years. :)

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 19 08:19:38 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 08:20:47 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, <Pochol@WebfootGames.com>, <codec@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C8E3055F.253CE%stewe@stewe.org>
Thread-Topic: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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Hi,
With =B3hat=B2:
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=8Bor
worse: abbreviate=8Blicensing terms provided by a rightholder.  Skype=B9s
licensing declaration can be found at https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297=
.
I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of thei=
r
technology into an IETF standard.
Stephan



On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote=
:

> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledge=
d to
> make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
> standard.
>=20
>     Jean-Marc
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
> Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard abo=
ut
> Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.
>=20
> We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license a=
s
> speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
> we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
> handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it=
.
>=20
> -Pascal
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


--B_3370321257_9559710
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Hi,<BR>
With &#8220;hat&#8221;:<BR>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe&#8212;=
or worse: abbreviate&#8212;licensing terms provided by a rightholder. &nbsp;=
Skype&#8217;s licensing declaration can be found at <a href=3D"https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/ipr/1297">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>. &nbsp;I n=
ote that the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of their te=
chnology into an IETF standard.<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.va=
lin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Opus is available under the BSD license. As for =
patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-free once the code=
c is accepted as an IETF standard.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf=
 of Pascal Pochol<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<BR>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
<BR>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<BR>
<BR>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as<=
BR>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and<BR=
>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus<BR>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.<=
BR>
<BR>
-Pascal<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"></SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FA=
CE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>___________=
____________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
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From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 19 08:24:49 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 08:26:07 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: <codec@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C8E3069F.253D1%stewe@stewe.org>
Thread-Topic: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Hi,

I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, the
filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in question is
a WG item of WG <wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear that the
"opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a decision to
than extent.

If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encourage
those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statements
with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are searching
through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing to do,
at least for me).

Thanks,
Stephan


On 10.15.2010 13:30 , "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org" <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
wrote:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group
> of the IETF.
> 
> 
> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
> Pages           : 12
> Date            : 2010-10-15
> 
> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Tue Oct 19 08:30:08 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:31:19 -0400
From: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Hi,

draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several names 
in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and 
draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is the 
draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, the
> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in question is
> a WG item of WG<wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear that the
> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a decision to
> than extent.
>
> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encourage
> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statements
> with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are searching
> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing to do,
> at least for me).
>
> Thanks,
> Stephan
>
>
> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
> wrote:
>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group
>> of the IETF.
>>
>>
>> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>> Pages           : 12
>> Date            : 2010-10-15
>>
>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> Internet-Draft.
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 19 09:03:34 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Four things:

First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting.  Weak memory on my side.
Apologies.

Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has not
happened according to my read of the email archive.

Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
which was really the time I should have complained.

So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) that
there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
codec-description draft.  Which brings me to point #4:

As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.  Selecting
a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change.  "Opus" is such a flashy name
that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it.  For
example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an audio
product named "Opus", I would object to the name change.  So the thing you
should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The editors
consider changing the name of our codec to Opus.  Is that acceptable to the
WG?".

It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken shortcuts
with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them.  That, IMO, fills up your
quota for the next couple of years.  Please be more conservative from now
on.

Regards,
Stephan




On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several names
> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is the
> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
> 
> Jean-Marc
> 
> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, the
>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in question is
>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear that the
>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a decision to
>> than extent.
>> 
>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encourage
>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statements
>> with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are searching
>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing to do,
>> at least for me).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Stephan
>> 
>> 
>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group
>>> of the IETF.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>> Pages           : 12
>>> Date            : 2010-10-15
>>> 
>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>> 
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>> 
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>> 
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>> Internet-Draft.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 



From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Oct 19 10:01:25 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Stephan Wenger'" <stewe@stewe.org>, <codec@ietf.org>
References: <4CBDB9C7.1020206@octasic.com> <C8E30FAD.253DA%stewe@stewe.org>
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Hi,

the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to =
standardized algorithms.=20
As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies. =
Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.

I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the =
trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer =
that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.

Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they  =
(or the readers of this mailing list) are...

With best regards,

 Christian

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Stephan Wenger
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt

Hi Jean-Marc,

Four things:

First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting.  Weak memory on my =
side.
Apologies.

Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has =
not
happened according to my read of the email archive.

Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
which was really the time I should have complained.

So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) =
that
there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
codec-description draft.  Which brings me to point #4:

As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.  =
Selecting
a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change.  "Opus" is such a flashy =
name
that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it.  =
For
example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an =
audio
product named "Opus", I would object to the name change.  So the thing =
you
should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The =
editors
consider changing the name of our codec to Opus.  Is that acceptable to =
the
WG?".

It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken =
shortcuts
with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them.  That, IMO, fills up =
your
quota for the next couple of years.  Please be more conservative from =
now
on.

Regards,
Stephan




On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> =
wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several =
names
> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is =
the
> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>=20
> Jean-Marc
>=20
> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, =
the
>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in =
question is
>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear that =
the
>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a =
decision to
>> than extent.
>>=20
>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to =
encourage
>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those =
statements
>> with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are searching
>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing =
to do,
>> at least for me).
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Stephan
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , =
"Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec =
Working Group
>>> of the IETF.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>> Pages           : 12
>>> Date            : 2010-10-15
>>>=20
>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>=20
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>=20
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>=20
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>> Internet-Draft.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Tue Oct 19 10:32:24 2010
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Hi Christian,

I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this case, 
the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware of 
anyone registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context). I'm not 
against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any ownership is 
necessary to begin with.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain of 
application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue with 
the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one who 
originally suggested that name.

On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to standardized algorithms.
> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies. Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>
> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>
> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they  (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>
> With best regards,
>
>   Christian
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of TÃ¼bingen
> Sand 13, 72076 TÃ¼bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>
> Hi Jean-Marc,
>
> Four things:
>
> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting.  Weak memory on my side.
> Apologies.
>
> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has not
> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>
> Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
> which was really the time I should have complained.
>
> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) that
> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
> codec-description draft.  Which brings me to point #4:
>
> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.  Selecting
> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change.  "Opus" is such a flashy name
> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it.  For
> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an audio
> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change.  So the thing you
> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The editors
> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus.  Is that acceptable to the
> WG?".
>
> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken shortcuts
> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them.  That, IMO, fills up your
> quota for the next couple of years.  Please be more conservative from now
> on.
>
> Regards,
> Stephan
>
>
>
>
> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several names
>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is the
>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, the
>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in question is
>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear that the
>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a decision to
>>> than extent.
>>>
>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encourage
>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statements
>>> with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are searching
>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing to do,
>>> at least for me).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>> directories.
>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group
>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>> Pages           : 12
>>>> Date            : 2010-10-15
>>>>
>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>
>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>
>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> codec mailing list
>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stephen.botzko@gmail.com  Tue Oct 19 10:43:10 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:44:38 -0400
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Registering trademarks can be expensive, esp. if you are doing it in
multiple countries.  I don't see any necessity for this - even if we had th=
e
money, I'd rather see it go for additional characterization/testing.

Regards
Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <
jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote:

> Hi Christian,
>
> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this case,
> the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware of any=
one
> registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context). I'm not agai=
nst
> the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any ownership is necessar=
y
> to begin with.
>
> Cheers,
>
>        Jean-Marc
>
> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain of
> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue wit=
h
> the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one who
> originally suggested that name.
>
>
> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to standardize=
d
>> algorithms.
>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies.
>> Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>
>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the trademar=
k
>> issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer that such a=
s
>> trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>
>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they
>>  (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>
>> With best regards,
>>
>>  Christian
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen
>> Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>>
>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f
>> Stephan Wenger
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>> To: codec@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> Four things:
>>
>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting.  Weak memory on my
>> side.
>> Apologies.
>>
>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has no=
t
>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>
>> Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>
>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2)
>> that
>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>> codec-description draft.  Which brings me to point #4:
>>
>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.
>>  Selecting
>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change.  "Opus" is such a flashy
>> name
>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it.
>>  For
>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an
>> audio
>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change.  So the thing y=
ou
>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The edito=
rs
>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus.  Is that acceptable to
>> the
>> WG?".
>>
>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken
>> shortcuts
>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them.  That, IMO, fills up
>> your
>> quota for the next couple of years.  Please be more conservative from no=
w
>> on.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  Hi,
>>>
>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several
>>> names
>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is
>>> the
>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>
>>> Jean-Marc
>>>
>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, t=
he
>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in questi=
on
>>>> is
>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear that
>>>> the
>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a
>>>> decision to
>>>> than extent.
>>>>
>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to
>>>> encourage
>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those
>>>> statements
>>>> with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are searching
>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing =
to
>>>> do,
>>>> at least for me).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Stephan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<
>>>> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>> directories.
>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Workin=
g
>>>>> Group
>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>> Pages           : 12
>>>>> Date            : 2010-10-15
>>>>>
>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>
>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> codec mailing list
>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

--0016e6dee986c890640492fbd89c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Registering trademarks can be expensive, esp. if you are doing it in multip=
le countries.=A0 I don&#39;t see any necessity for this - even if we had th=
e money, I&#39;d rather see it go for additional characterization/testing.<=
br>
<br>Regards<br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct=
 19, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Christian,<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this cas=
e, the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I&#39;m not aware o=
f anyone registering a trademark on the &quot;Opus&quot; name in this conte=
xt). I&#39;m not against the IETF owning the trademark, but I&#39;m not sur=
e any ownership is necessary to begin with.<br>

<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
As a note, my company does use the term &quot;Opus&quot; in a different dom=
ain of application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issu=
e with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I&#39;m not the on=
e who originally suggested that name.<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=
=3D"im">
Hi,<br>
<br>
the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to standardized a=
lgorithms.<br>
As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies. Since=
 then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.<br>
<br>
I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the trademark i=
ssue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer that such as tr=
ademark is owned by the IETF if possible.<br>
<br>
Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they =A0(=
or the readers of this mailing list) are...<br>
<br>
With best regards,<br>
<br>
 =A0Christian<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<br></div>
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen<br>
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532<div><div></di=
v><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.n=
et.uni-tuebingen.de/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Stephan Wenger<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><=
br>
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt<br>
<br>
Hi Jean-Marc,<br>
<br>
Four things:<br>
<br>
First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. =A0Weak memory on my si=
de.<br>
Apologies.<br>
<br>
Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has not<b=
r>
happened according to my read of the email archive.<br>
<br>
Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,<br>
which was really the time I should have complained.<br>
<br>
So I&#39;m willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) =
that<br>
there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the<br>
codec-description draft. =A0Which brings me to point #4:<br>
<br>
As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus. =A0Select=
ing<br>
a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. =A0&quot;Opus&quot; is such =
a flashy name<br>
that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it. =A0=
For<br>
example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an audio=
<br>
product named &quot;Opus&quot;, I would object to the name change. =A0So th=
e thing you<br>
should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying &quot;The edi=
tors<br>
consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. =A0Is that acceptable to t=
he<br>
WG?&quot;.<br>
<br>
It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken shortcuts=
<br>
with the IETF&#39;s procedures, as I understand them. =A0That, IMO, fills u=
p your<br>
quota for the next couple of years. =A0Please be more conservative from now=
<br>
on.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.19.2010 08:31 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jean=
-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D"_blank">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&=
gt; =A0wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several names<=
br>
in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and<br>
draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is the<=
br>
draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.<br>
<br>
Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
I want to inquire the status of this draft. =A0In many working groups, the<=
br>
filename &quot;draft-ietf-&lt;wg name&gt;-xxx&quot; indicates that the draf=
t in question is<br>
a WG item of WG&lt;wg-name&gt;. =A0Following this logic, it would appear th=
at the<br>
&quot;opus&quot; draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. =A0I don&#39;t rec=
all a decision to<br>
than extent.<br>
<br>
If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encourage<b=
r>
those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statements<b=
r>
with the new filename. =A0This would help those of us who are searching<br>
through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing to do=
,<br>
at least for me).<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.15.2010 13:30 , &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</a>&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Inte=
rnet-Drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br=
>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts<br>
directories.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Grou=
p<br>
of the IETF.<br>
<br>
<br>
Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec<br>
Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : J. Valin, K. Vos<br>
Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt<br>
Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 12<br>
Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2010-10-15<br>
<br>
This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive<br>
speech and audio transmission over the Internet.<br>
<br>
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-op=
us-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp=
.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader<br>
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the<br>
Internet-Draft.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
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ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 19 10:54:44 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:55:44 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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I agree with Stephen.
In addition, there are kinds of marks that are not registered (and thus
cannot be found in the USPTO database), but are still enforceable.

(As an interesting (at least to me) side note, the trademark problematic ca=
n
also go the other way.  There is a Chinese guy who tries to sell the world
=B3his=B2 H.265 video codec=8Bwhich has nothing to do with the ITU=B9s effort
towards a Recommendation that may bear this name a few years down the road.
Would his activity =B3burn=B2 the designation of a future video codec as H.265
by the ITU?  In the IETF, AFAIK, the combination of  =B3RFC=B2 and a number is
sufficiently well protected, and that=B9s what is really the main concern.
I=B9m not sure the ITU has similarly strong mechanisms in place...)

Stephan



On 10.19.2010 10:44 , "Stephen Botzko" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com> wrote:

> Registering trademarks can be expensive, esp. if you are doing it in mult=
iple
> countries.=A0 I don't see any necessity for this - even if we had the money=
, I'd
> rather see it go for additional characterization/testing.
>=20
> Regards
> Stephen Botzko
>=20
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic=
.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi Christian,
>>=20
>> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this case=
, the
>> Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware of anyone
>> registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context). I'm not aga=
inst
>> the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any ownership is necessa=
ry to
>> begin with.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>>  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Jean-Marc
>>=20
>> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain of
>> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue wi=
th
>> the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one who
>> originally suggested that name.
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to standardiz=
ed
>>> algorithms.
>>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies. S=
ince
>>> then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>>=20
>>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the tradema=
rk
>>> issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer that such =
as
>>> trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>>=20
>>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they =
=A0(or
>>> the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>>=20
>>> With best regards,
>>>=20
>>>  =A0Christian
>>>=20
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen
>>> Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>>>=20
>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
>>> Stephan Wenger
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>>> To: codec@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>=20
>>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>>=20
>>> Four things:
>>>=20
>>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. =A0Weak memory on my =
side.
>>> Apologies.
>>>=20
>>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has n=
ot
>>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>>=20
>>> Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>>=20
>>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) =
that
>>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>>> codec-description draft. =A0Which brings me to point #4:
>>>=20
>>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus. =A0Sele=
cting
>>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. =A0"Opus" is such a flashy=
 name
>>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it.=
 =A0For
>>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an a=
udio
>>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change. =A0So the thing =
you
>>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The edit=
ors
>>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. =A0Is that acceptable to=
 the
>>> WG?".
>>>=20
>>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken short=
cuts
>>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. =A0That, IMO, fills up =
your
>>> quota for the next couple of years. =A0Please be more conservative from n=
ow
>>> on.
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Stephan
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> =A0w=
rote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi,
>>>>=20
>>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several n=
ames
>>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is=
 the
>>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>>=20
>>>> Jean-Marc
>>>>=20
>>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft. =A0In many working groups, =
the
>>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in quest=
ion
>>>>> is
>>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>. =A0Following this logic, it would appear that=
 the
>>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. =A0I don't recall a deci=
sion
>>>>> to
>>>>> than extent.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encou=
rage
>>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statem=
ents
>>>>> with the new filename. =A0This would help those of us who are searching
>>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing=
 to
>>>>> do,
>>>>> at least for me).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Stephan
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf=
.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>>> directories.
>>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Worki=
ng
>>>>>> Group
>>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>>> Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>>> Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>> Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 12
>>>>>> Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2010-10-15
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>I agree with Stephen.<BR>
In addition, there are kinds of marks that are not registered (and thus can=
not be found in the USPTO database), but are still enforceable.<BR>
<BR>
(As an interesting (at least to me) side note, the trademark problematic ca=
n also go the other way. &nbsp;There is a Chinese guy who tries to sell the =
world &#8220;his&#8221; H.265 video codec&#8212;which has nothing to do with=
 the ITU&#8217;s effort towards a Recommendation that may bear this name a f=
ew years down the road. &nbsp;Would his activity &#8220;burn&#8221; the desi=
gnation of a future video codec as H.265 by the ITU? &nbsp;In the IETF, AFAI=
K, the combination of &nbsp;&#8220;RFC&#8221; and a number is sufficiently w=
ell protected, and that&#8217;s what is really the main concern. &nbsp;I&#82=
17;m not sure the ITU has similarly strong mechanisms in place...)<BR>
<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10.19.2010 10:44 , &quot;Stephen Botzko&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"stephen.botzk=
o@gmail.com">stephen.botzko@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Registering trademarks can be expensive, esp. if=
 you are doing it in multiple countries.=A0 I don't see any necessity for this=
 - even if we had the money, I'd rather see it go for additional characteriz=
ation/testing.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
Stephen Botzko<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.val=
in@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi Christian,<BR>
<BR>
I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this case, t=
he Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware of anyone =
registering a trademark on the &quot;Opus&quot; name in this context). I'm n=
ot against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any ownership is =
necessary to begin with.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
As a note, my company does use the term &quot;Opus&quot; in a different dom=
ain of application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue=
 with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one who =
originally suggested that name.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi,<BR>
<BR>
the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to standardized a=
lgorithms.<BR>
As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies. Since=
 then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.<BR>
<BR>
I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the trademark i=
ssue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer that such as tra=
demark is owned by the IETF if possible.<BR>
<BR>
Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they =A0(or=
 the readers of this mailing list) are...<BR>
<BR>
With best regards,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0Christian<BR>
<BR>
---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<BR>
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T&Atilde;&#960;binge=
n<BR>
Sand 13, 72076 T&Atilde;&#960;bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532<BR>
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/=
</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D=
"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf=
 Of Stephan Wenger<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM<BR>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt<BR>
<BR>
Hi Jean-Marc,<BR>
<BR>
Four things:<BR>
<BR>
First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. =A0Weak memory on my side=
.<BR>
Apologies.<BR>
<BR>
Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has not<B=
R>
happened according to my read of the email archive.<BR>
<BR>
Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,<BR>
which was really the time I should have complained.<BR>
<BR>
So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) that=
<BR>
there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the<BR>
codec-description draft. =A0Which brings me to point #4:<BR>
<BR>
As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus. =A0Selectin=
g<BR>
a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. =A0&quot;Opus&quot; is such a =
flashy name<BR>
that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like it. =A0Fo=
r<BR>
example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an audio=
<BR>
product named &quot;Opus&quot;, I would object to the name change. =A0So the =
thing you<BR>
should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying &quot;The edi=
tors<BR>
consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. =A0Is that acceptable to the=
<BR>
WG?&quot;.<BR>
<BR>
It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken shortcuts=
<BR>
with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. =A0That, IMO, fills up your=
<BR>
quota for the next couple of years. =A0Please be more conservative from now<B=
R>
on.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10.19.2010 08:31 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.val=
in@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; =A0wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi,<BR>
<BR>
draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several names<=
BR>
in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and<BR>
draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This is the<=
BR>
draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.<BR>
<BR>
Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I want to inquire the status of this draft. =A0In many working groups, the<BR=
>
filename &quot;draft-ietf-&lt;wg name&gt;-xxx&quot; indicates that the draf=
t in question is<BR>
a WG item of WG&lt;wg-name&gt;. =A0Following this logic, it would appear that=
 the<BR>
&quot;opus&quot; draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. =A0I don't recall a =
decision to<BR>
than extent.<BR>
<BR>
If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to encourage<B=
R>
those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those statements<B=
R>
with the new filename. =A0This would help those of us who are searching<BR>
through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common thing to do=
,<BR>
at least for me).<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10.15.2010 13:30 , &quot;<a href=3D"Internet-Drafts@ietf.org&quot;&lt;Inte=
rnet-Drafts">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org&quot;&lt;Internet-Drafts</a>@ietf.org&=
gt;<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-li=
ne Internet-Drafts<BR>
directories.<BR>
This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Grou=
p<BR>
of the IETF.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec<BR>
Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : J. Valin, K. Vos<BR>
Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt<BR>
Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 12<BR>
Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2010-10-15<BR>
<BR>
This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive<BR>
speech and audio transmission over the Internet.<BR>
<BR>
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt">=
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt</a><BR>
<BR>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<BR>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-d=
rafts/</a><BR>
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From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Oct 19 11:11:30 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Stephan Wenger'" <stewe@stewe.org>, <codec@ietf.org>
References: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3605A34C4D@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <C8E3055F.253CE%stewe@stewe.org>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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Hi

=20

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Stephan Wenger
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing

=20

Hi,
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to =
circumscribe=E2=80=94or worse: abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms =
provided by a rightholder.  Skype=E2=80=99s licensing declaration can be =
found at https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297.  I note that the =
statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of their technology =
into an IETF standard.
Stephan



[Christian Hoene] +1

=20

It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior =
standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration, =
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a =
license from Skype.

=20

Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the =
original standard anymore, will require a license.

=20

Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not =
confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.

=20

Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer =
again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a =
draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not =
require any new license anymore.

=20

It is patent really essential for the opus codec?=20

=E2=80=9CA method of estimating noise in data containing voice =
information and noise includes receiving the data as a sequence of input =
values; transforming the data by applying a first non linear mapping to =
the input values wherein the derivative function of the mapping =
decreases in magnitude as the input values increase in magnitude =
smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed =
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is =
opposite to the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of =
the noise in the inputted data.=E2=80=9D

Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any =
ideas?=20

=20

Christian

=20

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=20




On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> =
wrote:

Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has =
pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted =
as an IETF standard.

    Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing

Hello,

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.

-Pascal

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



  _____ =20

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
codec-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephan Wenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi,<br>
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:<br>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to =
circumscribe=E2=80=94or worse:
abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =
&nbsp;Skype=E2=80=99s licensing
declaration can be found at <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297">https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/ipr/1297</a>.
&nbsp;I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the =
acceptance of
their technology into an IETF standard.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Christian Hoene] =
</span></i></b><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>+1<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to =
users
prior standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing =
declaration,
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a =
license
from Skype.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not =
conform to
the original standard anymore, will require a =
license.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that =
accidentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license =
fee.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk =
to
your lawyer again to weaken this license statements. This shall include =
at
least a draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard =
shall not
require any new license anymore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is patent really essential for the opus codec? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>=E2=80=9C</span><span class=3Dapple-style-span><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'>=
A method
of estimating noise in data containing voice information and noise =
includes
receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data =
by
applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the =
derivative
function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values =
increase in
magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is =
opposite to
the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in =
the
inputted data.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the =
patent.
Any ideas? <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Christian<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=BCbingen <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 =
2970532 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de=
/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a
href=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com"><span =
lang=3DEN-US>jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</span></a></span><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt;
wrote:</span><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Opus is available under the BSD =
license. As
for patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-free once =
the
codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of
Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these =
codecs.<br>
<br>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as<br>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software =
and<br>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as =
Opus<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.<br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>_________________________=
______________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org=
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From roman@telurix.com  Tue Oct 19 11:58:45 2010
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References: <390831ED3DF58E41A3D2FB82591E2C3605A34C4D@MAILEXCH.octasic.com> <C8E3055F.253CE%stewe@stewe.org> <000c01cb6fb9$41b95910$c52c0b30$@de>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:00:11 -0400
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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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--20cf301d41d40531ba0492fce710
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

People get touchy here about discussing the actual patent claims, but as fa=
r
as I can see the only thing affected by this patent is the DTX portion of
the codec. We can use some other VAD method for the Opus codec to work
around the patent.

P.S. I am pretty sure, I saw something very similar to what's described in
this patent in OpenH323 about 10 years ago, but I am not the patent lawyer.
_____________________________
Roman Shpount - www.telurix.com


2010/10/19 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>

>  Hi
>
>
>
> *From:* codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Stephan Wenger
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM
> *To:* Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
>
>
> Hi,
> With =93hat=94:
> It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=97or
> worse: abbreviate=97licensing terms provided by a rightholder.  Skype=92s
> licensing declaration can be found at
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297.  I note that the statement contain=
s
> conditions beyond the acceptance of their technology into an IETF standar=
d.
> Stephan
>
>  *[Christian Hoene] *+1
>
>
>
> It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior
> standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration,
> this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a
> license from Skype.
>
>
>
> Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the origina=
l
> standard anymore, will require a license.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not
> confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.
>
>
>
> Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer
> again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a dr=
aft
> versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not require
> any new license anymore.
>
>
>
> It is patent really essential for the opus codec?
>
> =93A method of estimating noise in data containing voice information and
> noise includes receiving the data as a sequence of input values;
> transforming the data by applying a first non linear mapping to the input
> values wherein the derivative function of the mapping decreases in magnit=
ude
> as the input values increase in magnitude smoothing the transformed data;
> and transforming the smoothed transformed data by applying a second non
> linear mapping that is opposite to the first non linear mapping, to
> determine an estimate of the noise in the inputted data.=94
>
> Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any idea=
s?
>
>
>
>
> Christian
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
>
> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
> * *
>
>
>
>
> On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
> wrote:
>
> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledge=
d
> to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
> standard.
>
>     Jean-Marc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
> Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
> Hello,
>
> we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard abo=
ut
> Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.
>
> We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license a=
s
> speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
> we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
> handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it=
.
>
> -Pascal
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>

--20cf301d41d40531ba0492fce710
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

People get touchy here about discussing the actual patent claims, but as fa=
r as I can see the only thing affected by this patent is the DTX portion of=
 the codec. We can use some other VAD method for the Opus codec to work aro=
und the patent.<br>
<br>P.S. I am pretty sure, I saw something very similar to what&#39;s descr=
ibed in this patent in OpenH323 about 10 years ago, but I am not the patent=
 lawyer.<br clear=3D"all">_____________________________<br>Roman Shpount - =
<a href=3D"http://www.telurix.com">www.telurix.com</a><br>

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/10/19 Christian Hoene <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hoene@uni-tuebingen.de">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</=
a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">











<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"DE">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Hi</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none non=
e; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color=
; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;"> <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephan Wenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; <a href=3D"mailto:code=
c@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span></p>

</div>

</div><div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt;">Hi,<br>
With =93hat=94:<br>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=97or w=
orse:
abbreviate=97licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =A0Skype=92s licens=
ing
declaration can be found at <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/129=
7" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>.
=A0I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of
their technology into an IETF standard.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></span></p>

</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: r=
gb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">[Christian Hoene] </span></i></b><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">+1</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to=
 users
prior standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declarati=
on,
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a licen=
se
from Skype.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not con=
form to
the original standard anymore, will require a license.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that acci=
dentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, t=
alk to
your lawyer again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at
least a draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall=
 not
require any new license anymore.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">It is patent really essential for the opus codec? </sp=
an></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=93</span><span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51);" lang=3D"EN-US">A method
of estimating noise in data containing voice information and noise includes
receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data by
applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the derivat=
ive
function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values increase=
 in
magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is opposite t=
o
the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in the
inputted data.=94</span></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent t=
he patent.
Any ideas? </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Christian</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------=
----------------------------------</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sys=
tems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Ge=
rmany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni=
-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></spa=
n></p>
<div class=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></i></b=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt;" lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;</span><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt;"><a href=3D"http://jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D=
"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</span></a></span>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;
wrote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt;">Opus is available under the BSD license. As
for patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-free once the
codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<br>
<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"http://codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><=
br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we&#39;ve been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard a=
bout<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<br>
<br>
We&#39;re wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license=
 as<br>
speex and celt? SILK&#39;s license forbid its use in commercial software an=
d<br>
we&#39;re worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus=
<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we&#39;ll be using =
it.<br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
</span></p>

<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;" align=3D"center"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt;">

<hr width=3D"95%" align=3D"center" size=3D"3">

</span></div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Consola=
s;">_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span></p>

</div></div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--20cf301d41d40531ba0492fce710--

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:27:39 +0200 (CEST)
From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <1087600857.938363.1287516459556.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra>
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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If you modify the codec so much that it can't=20



From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>=20
To: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20

Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20


Hi=20





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=
tephan Wenger=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM=20
To: Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20



Hi,=20
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:=20
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=E2=80=
=94or worse: abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =
Skype=E2=80=99s licensing declaration can be found at https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/ipr/1297 . I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the=
 acceptance of their technology into an IETF standard.=20
Stephan=20



[Christian Hoene] +1=20



It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior standard=
ization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration, this is no=
t possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a license from Sk=
ype.=20



Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the original =
standard anymore, will require a license.=20



Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not con=
firm to the standard yet will require a license fee.=20



Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer ag=
ain to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a draft =
versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not require a=
ny new license anymore.=20



It is patent really essential for the opus codec?=20

=E2=80=9C A method of estimating noise in data containing voice information=
 and noise includes receiving the data as a sequence of input values; trans=
forming the data by applying a first non linear mapping to the input values=
 wherein the derivative function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as t=
he input values increase in magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and t=
ransforming the smoothed transformed data by applying a second non linear m=
apping that is opposite to the first non linear mapping, to determine an es=
timate of the noise in the inputted data.=E2=80=9D=20

Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any ideas?=
=20



Christian=20



---------------------------------------------------------------=20

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene=20

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/=20






On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" < jean-marc.valin@octasic.com > wro=
te:=20

Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledged =
to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF s=
tandard.=20

Jean-Marc=20

-----Original Message-----=20
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol=20
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM=20
To: codec@ietf.org=20
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20

Hello,=20

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
=20
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.=20

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as=
=20
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and=20
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus=20
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.=
=20

-Pascal=20

_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20





_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20
_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20

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<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><=
div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
>If you modify the codec so much that it can't <br><br><br><hr><b>From: </b=
>"Christian Hoene" &lt;hoene@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<br><b>To: </b>"Stephan We=
nger" &lt;stewe@stewe.org&gt;, codec@ietf.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, Octo=
ber 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensin=
g<br><br>




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<title>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</title>
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Hi</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; b=
order-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-tex=
t-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"> code=
c-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephan Wenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Hi,<br=
>
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:<br>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=E2=80=
=94or worse:
abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms provided by a rightholder. &nbsp;Skype=
=E2=80=99s licensing
declaration can be found at <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/129=
7" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>.
&nbsp;I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance o=
f
their technology into an IETF standard.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=
=3D"EN-US">[Christian Hoene] </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73=
, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">+1</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users
prior standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declarati=
on,
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a licen=
se
from Skype.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to
the original standard anymore, will require a license.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to
your lawyer again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at
least a draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall=
 not
require any new license anymore.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">It is patent really essential for the opus codec? </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">=E2=80=9C</span><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 9pt; font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(5=
1, 51, 51);" lang=3D"EN-US">A method
of estimating noise in data containing voice information and noise includes
receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data by
applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the derivat=
ive
function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values increase=
 in
magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is opposite t=
o
the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in the
inputted data.=E2=80=9D</span></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent.
Any ideas? </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Christian</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------=
----------------------------------</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sys=
tems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen,=
 Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni=
-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; c=
olor: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i></b></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;" lang=
=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" &lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"><a href=
=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">jea=
n-marc.valin@octasic.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;" lang=3D"EN-US">&gt=
;
wrote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Opus i=
s available under the BSD license. As
for patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-free once the
codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a> on behalf of
Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<br>
<br>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as<=
br>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and<br=
>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.<=
br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
</span></p>

<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;" align=3D"center"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;;">

<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"3" width=3D"95%">

</span></div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Consola=
s;">_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span></p>

</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>codec mailing list<b=
r>codec@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<br></div></=
body></html>
------=_Part_938362_2023225065.1287516459554--

From koen.vos@skype.net  Tue Oct 19 12:29:46 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:31:13 +0200 (CEST)
From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <1559386036.938403.1287516673396.JavaMail.root@lu2-zimbra>
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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------=_Part_938402_1267730389.1287516673393
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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Sorry, please ignore previous email - bad keyboard shortcut...=20

>> Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not =
confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.=20

If you modify the codec so much that it's no longer compatible to the stand=
ard, then that modified codec is no longer "Opus". In that case you've crea=
ted a new codec and I think it's only reasonable that the patent license do=
esn't apply.=20

best,=20
koen.=20



From: "Koen Vos" <koen.vos@skype.net>=20
To: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>=20
Cc: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:27:39 PM=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20


If you modify the codec so much that it can't=20



From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>=20
To: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20

Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20


Hi=20





From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=
tephan Wenger=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM=20
To: Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20



Hi,=20
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:=20
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=E2=80=
=94or worse: abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =
Skype=E2=80=99s licensing declaration can be found at https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/ipr/1297 . I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the=
 acceptance of their technology into an IETF standard.=20
Stephan=20



[Christian Hoene] +1=20



It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior standard=
ization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration, this is no=
t possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a license from Sk=
ype.=20



Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the original =
standard anymore, will require a license.=20



Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not con=
firm to the standard yet will require a license fee.=20



Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer ag=
ain to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a draft =
versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not require a=
ny new license anymore.=20



It is patent really essential for the opus codec?=20

=E2=80=9C A method of estimating noise in data containing voice information=
 and noise includes receiving the data as a sequence of input values; trans=
forming the data by applying a first non linear mapping to the input values=
 wherein the derivative function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as t=
he input values increase in magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and t=
ransforming the smoothed transformed data by applying a second non linear m=
apping that is opposite to the first non linear mapping, to determine an es=
timate of the noise in the inputted data.=E2=80=9D=20

Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any ideas?=
=20



Christian=20



---------------------------------------------------------------=20

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene=20

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/=20






On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" < jean-marc.valin@octasic.com > wro=
te:=20

Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledged =
to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF s=
tandard.=20

Jean-Marc=20

-----Original Message-----=20
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol=20
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM=20
To: codec@ietf.org=20
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing=20

Hello,=20

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
=20
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.=20

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as=
=20
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and=20
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus=20
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.=
=20

-Pascal=20

_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20





_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20
_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20

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<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><=
div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
>Sorry, please ignore previous email - bad keyboard shortcut...<br><br><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">&gt;&gt; Furthermore, an=
y implementation of the codec that accidentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.</span><br>=
<br>If you modify the codec so much that it's no longer compatible to the s=
tandard, then that modified codec is no longer "Opus".&nbsp; In that case y=
ou've created a new codec and I think it's only reasonable that the patent =
license doesn't apply.<br><br>best,<br>koen.<br><br><br><hr><b>From: </b>"K=
oen Vos" &lt;koen.vos@skype.net&gt;<br><b>To: </b>"Christian Hoene" &lt;hoe=
ne@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>"Stephan Wenger" &lt;stewe@stewe.org&=
gt;, codec@ietf.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:27:39 PM<b=
r><b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br><br><style>p { margin=
: 0; }</style><div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">If you modify the codec so much that it can't <br><br=
><br><hr><b>From: </b>"Christian Hoene" &lt;hoene@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<br><=
b>To: </b>"Stephan Wenger" &lt;stewe@stewe.org&gt;, codec@ietf.org<br><b>Se=
nt: </b>Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec=
] Opus codec licensing<br><br>




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<title>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</title>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Hi</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none non=
e; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color=
; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"> code=
c-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephan Wenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Hi,<br=
>
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:<br>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=E2=80=
=94or worse:
abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms provided by a rightholder. &nbsp;Skype=
=E2=80=99s licensing
declaration can be found at <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/129=
7" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>.
&nbsp;I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance o=
f
their technology into an IETF standard.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=
=3D"EN-US">[Christian Hoene] </span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73=
, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">+1</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users
prior standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declarati=
on,
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a licen=
se
from Skype.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to
the original standard anymore, will require a license.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to
your lawyer again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at
least a draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall=
 not
require any new license anymore.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">It is patent really essential for the opus codec? </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">=E2=80=9C</span><span class=3D"apple-style-span"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 9pt; font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(5=
1, 51, 51);" lang=3D"EN-US">A method
of estimating noise in data containing voice information and noise includes
receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data by
applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the derivat=
ive
function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values increase=
 in
magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is opposite t=
o
the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in the
inputted data.=E2=80=9D</span></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent.
Any ideas? </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Christian</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------=
----------------------------------</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sys=
tems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen,=
 Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni=
-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; c=
olor: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i></b></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;" lang=
=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" &lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;"><a href=
=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">jea=
n-marc.valin@octasic.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;" lang=3D"EN-US">&gt=
;
wrote:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Opus i=
s available under the BSD license. As
for patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-free once the
codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a> on behalf of
Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<br>
<br>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as<=
br>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and<br=
>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.<=
br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
</span></p>

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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
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r>codec@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<br></div></=
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From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 19 13:09:30 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:10:38 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <C8E3494E.253EF%stewe@stewe.org>
Thread-Topic: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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Hi,

On 10.19.2010 12:00 , "Roman Shpount" <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

> People get touchy here about discussing the actual patent claims, [...]
>=20
Indeed.  I very strongly suggest to conduct patent related work elsewhere,
and only among those interested and willing.  You are exposing participants
to claim language which can trigger all kinds of evil to those participatin=
g
and, arguably, even those only listening in.  I can=B9t prevent you from doin=
g
so, but please keep the risks in mind when discussing claim language here:
1) possible willful infringement allegations, 2) potentially loosing
participation because of input from legal departments due to the previous
point, 3) coming to questionable, if not outright wrong, conclusions due to
lack of legal experience, 4) changing a design based on those conclusions
with or without removing the encumbrance.

Stephan

=20
>=20
> 2010/10/19 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
>> Hi
>> =A0
>>=20
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f
>> Stephan Wenger
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM
>> To: Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>>=20
>> =A0
>> Hi,
>> With =B3hat=B2:
>> It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=8Bor
>> worse: abbreviate=8Blicensing terms provided by a rightholder. =A0Skype=B9s
>> licensing declaration can be found at https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1=
297.
>> =A0I note that the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of =
their
>> technology into an IETF standard.
>> Stephan
>>=20
>>=20
>> [Christian Hoene] +1
>> =A0
>> It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior
>> standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration,=
 this
>> is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a license=
 from
>> Skype.
>> =A0
>> Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the origin=
al
>> standard anymore, will require a license.
>> =A0
>> Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not
>> confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.
>> =A0
>> Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer
>> again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a d=
raft
>> versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not requir=
e any
>> new license anymore.
>> =A0
>> It is patent really essential for the opus codec?
>> =B3A method of estimating noise in data containing voice information and n=
oise
>> includes receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming =
the
>> data by applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein =
the
>> derivative function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input v=
alues
>> increase in magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming t=
he
>> smoothed transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that i=
s
>> opposite to the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of th=
e
>> noise in the inputted data.=B2
>> Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any ide=
as?
>> =A0
>> Christian
>> =A0
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
>> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>=20
>> =A0
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com
>> <http://jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> > wrote:
>> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledg=
ed to
>> make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
>> standard.
>>=20
>> =A0=A0=A0=A0Jean-Marc
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <http://codec-bounces@ietf.org>  on behalf =
of
>> Pascal Pochol
>> Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
>> To: codec@ietf.org <http://codec@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>>=20
>> Hello,
>>=20
>> we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard ab=
out
>> Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.
>>=20
>> We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as
>> speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
>> we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
>> handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using i=
t.
>>=20
>> -Pascal
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org <http://codec@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org <http://codec@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Hi,<BR>
<BR>
On 10.19.2010 12:00 , &quot;Roman Shpount&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"roman@telurix.=
com">roman@telurix.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>People get touchy here about discussing the actu=
al patent claims, [...]<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Indeed. &nbsp;I very strongly suggest to conduc=
t patent related work elsewhere, and only among those interested and willing=
. &nbsp;You are exposing participants to claim language which can trigger al=
l kinds of evil to those participating and, arguably, even those only listen=
ing in. &nbsp;I can&#8217;t prevent you from doing so, but please keep the r=
isks in mind when discussing claim language here: 1) possible willful infrin=
gement allegations, 2) potentially loosing participation because of input fr=
om legal departments due to the previous point, 3) coming to questionable, i=
f not outright wrong, conclusions due to lack of legal experience, 4) changi=
ng a design based on those conclusions with or without removing the encumbra=
nce.<BR>
<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
2010/10/19 Christian Hoene &lt;<a href=3D"hoene@uni-tuebingen.de">hoene@uni-t=
uebingen.de</a>&gt;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hi<BR>
=A0<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>From:</B> <a href=3D"co=
dec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:codec-boun=
ces@ietf.org">mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephan=
 Wenger<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Jean-Marc Valin; <a href=3D"Pochol@WebfootGames.com">Pochol@Webfoo=
tGames.com</a>; <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
=A0<BR>
Hi,<BR>
With &#8220;hat&#8221;:<BR>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe&#8212;=
or worse: abbreviate&#8212;licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =A0Skype=
&#8217;s licensing declaration can be found at <a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/ipr/1297">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>. =A0I note that t=
he statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of their technology i=
nto an IETF standard.<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B><I>[Christian Hoene] </I></B>+1<BR>
=A0<BR>
It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior standard=
ization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration, this is not=
 possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a license from Skyp=
e.<BR>
=A0<BR>
Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the original =
standard anymore, will require a license.<BR>
=A0<BR>
Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not con=
firm to the standard yet will require a license fee.<BR>
=A0<BR>
Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer ag=
ain to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a draft v=
ersions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not require any=
 new license anymore.<BR>
=A0<BR>
It is patent really essential for the opus codec? <BR>
&#8220;</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:9pt'>A method of estima=
ting noise in data containing voice information and noise includes receiving=
 the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data by applying a=
 first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the derivative functio=
n of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values increase in magn=
itude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed transfor=
med data by applying a second non linear mapping that is opposite to the fir=
st non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in the inputted=
 data.&#8221;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Anyhow, it should not be too dif=
ficult to circumvent the patent. Any ideas? <BR>
=A0<BR>
Christian<BR>
=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><S=
PAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>-------------------------------------------------=
--------------<BR>
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<BR>
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T&uuml;bingen <BR>
Sand 13, 72076 T&uuml;bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 <BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/=
</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<B><I>=A0<BR>
</I></B><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.va=
lin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://jean-ma=
rc.valin@octasic.com">http://jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; &gt; wrote:=
<BR>
Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledged =
to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF st=
andard.<BR>
<BR>
=A0=A0=A0=A0Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://codec-bounces@ietf.org">http://codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; &nb=
sp;on behalf of Pascal Pochol<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<BR>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://codec@i=
etf.org">http://codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; <BR>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
<BR>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<BR>
<BR>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as<=
BR>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and<BR=
>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus<BR>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.<=
BR>
<BR>
-Pascal<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.=
org">http://codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; <BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>

</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'><HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"></SPAN></FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fon=
t-size:10pt'>_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.=
org">http://codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; <BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
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From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 19 13:12:53 2010
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To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>, <codec@ietf.org>
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Hi Christian,

On 10.19.2010 11:12 , "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

> [...]=20
> Clearly, these terms are unacceptable.
> [...]
> =20
Let me suggest that you (and everyone else) mark their opinion on licensing
terms as your personal opinion.  What=B9s acceptable or inacceptable to you
may very well be acceptable or inacceptable to me.

Same goes with compliance to the charter.

Stephan

>=20
>=20
> On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com
> <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> > wrote:
> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledge=
d to
> make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
> standard.
>=20
>     Jean-Marc
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
> Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard abo=
ut
> Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.
>=20
> We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license a=
s
> speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
> we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
> handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it=
.
>=20
> -Pascal
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20


--B_3370338846_968376
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Hi Christian,<BR>
<BR>
On 10.19.2010 11:12 , &quot;Christian Hoene&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"hoene@uni-tu=
ebingen.de">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>[...]<FONT COLOR=3D"#1F497D"> <BR>
Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. <BR>
[...]<BR>
<B><I> <BR>
</I></B></FONT></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPA=
N STYLE=3D'font-size:12pt'>Let me suggest that you (and everyone else) mark th=
eir opinion on licensing terms as your personal opinion. &nbsp;What&#8217;s =
acceptable or inacceptable to you may very well be acceptable or inacceptabl=
e to me.<BR>
<BR>
Same goes with compliance to the charter.<BR>
<BR>
Stephan<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'=
font-size:11pt'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
<BR>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.va=
lin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.vali=
n@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; &gt; wrote:<BR>
Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledged =
to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF st=
andard.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf=
 of Pascal Pochol<BR>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<BR>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard about=
<BR>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<BR>
<BR>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license as<=
BR>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and<BR=
>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus<BR>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it.<=
BR>
<BR>
-Pascal<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>

</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'><HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"></SPAN></FONT>
<P>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fon=
t-size:10pt'>_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3370338846_968376--



From jdrosen@jdrosen.net  Tue Oct 19 17:41:40 2010
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:43:09 -0400
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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IETF has a long history of standards with names - ICE, SIP, POP, IMAP, 
etc. These are also acronyms, but increasingly the acronyms are highly 
contrived and are basically names (DECADE, ENUM, SALUD) and in some 
cases just names (Sieve). However, IETF has not ever filed for 
trademarks on any of these, and I see absolutely no reason to start now.

-Jonathan R.



On 10/19/2010 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
> Hi Christian,
>
> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this
> case, the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware
> of anyone registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context).
> I'm not against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any
> ownership is necessary to begin with.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jean-Marc
>
> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain of
> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue
> with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one
> who originally suggested that name.
>
> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to
>> standardized algorithms.
>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies.
>> Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>
>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the
>> trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer
>> that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>
>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they
>> (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>
>> With best regards,
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of TÃ¼bingen
>> Sand 13, 72076 TÃ¼bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>> Of Stephan Wenger
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>> To: codec@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> Four things:
>>
>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. Weak memory on my
>> side.
>> Apologies.
>>
>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has not
>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>
>> Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>
>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2)
>> that
>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>> codec-description draft. Which brings me to point #4:
>>
>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.
>> Selecting
>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. "Opus" is such a flashy
>> name
>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like
>> it. For
>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an
>> audio
>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change. So the thing you
>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The
>> editors
>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. Is that acceptable to
>> the
>> WG?".
>>
>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken
>> shortcuts
>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. That, IMO, fills up
>> your
>> quota for the next couple of years. Please be more conservative from now
>> on.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several
>>> names
>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This
>>> is the
>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>
>>> Jean-Marc
>>>
>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft. In many working groups, the
>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in
>>>> question is
>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>. Following this logic, it would appear that
>>>> the
>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. I don't recall a
>>>> decision to
>>>> than extent.
>>>>
>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to
>>>> encourage
>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those
>>>> statements
>>>> with the new filename. This would help those of us who are searching
>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common
>>>> thing to do,
>>>> at least for me).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Stephan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 ,
>>>> "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>> directories.
>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec
>>>>> Working Group
>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Title : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>> Author(s) : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>> Pages : 12
>>>>> Date : 2010-10-15
>>>>>
>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>
>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> codec mailing list
>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) 465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net



From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Tue Oct 19 18:23:48 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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OK great! I didn't see any reason either, but was leaving the door open
in case someone insisted. Glad that's not the case :-)

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-19 08:43 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> IETF has a long history of standards with names - ICE, SIP, POP, IMAP,
> etc. These are also acronyms, but increasingly the acronyms are highly
> contrived and are basically names (DECADE, ENUM, SALUD) and in some
> cases just names (Sieve). However, IETF has not ever filed for
> trademarks on any of these, and I see absolutely no reason to start now.
> 
> -Jonathan R.
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/19/2010 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this
>> case, the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware
>> of anyone registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context).
>> I'm not against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any
>> ownership is necessary to begin with.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain of
>> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue
>> with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one
>> who originally suggested that name.
>>
>> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to
>>> standardized algorithms.
>>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies.
>>> Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>>
>>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the
>>> trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer
>>> that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>>
>>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they
>>> (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>>
>>> With best regards,
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of TÃ¼bingen
>>> Sand 13, 72076 TÃ¼bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Stephan Wenger
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>>> To: codec@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>>
>>> Four things:
>>>
>>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. Weak memory on my
>>> side.
>>> Apologies.
>>>
>>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has
>>> not
>>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>>
>>> Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>>
>>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2)
>>> that
>>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>>> codec-description draft. Which brings me to point #4:
>>>
>>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.
>>> Selecting
>>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. "Opus" is such a flashy
>>> name
>>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like
>>> it. For
>>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an
>>> audio
>>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change. So the thing
>>> you
>>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The
>>> editors
>>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. Is that acceptable to
>>> the
>>> WG?".
>>>
>>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken
>>> shortcuts
>>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. That, IMO, fills up
>>> your
>>> quota for the next couple of years. Please be more conservative from now
>>> on.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several
>>>> names
>>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This
>>>> is the
>>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Jean-Marc
>>>>
>>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft. In many working groups,
>>>>> the
>>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in
>>>>> question is
>>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>. Following this logic, it would appear that
>>>>> the
>>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. I don't recall a
>>>>> decision to
>>>>> than extent.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to
>>>>> encourage
>>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those
>>>>> statements
>>>>> with the new filename. This would help those of us who are searching
>>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common
>>>>> thing to do,
>>>>> at least for me).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Stephan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 ,
>>>>> "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>>> directories.
>>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec
>>>>>> Working Group
>>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Title : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>>> Author(s) : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>> Pages : 12
>>>>>> Date : 2010-10-15
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 

From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Oct 19 23:01:22 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, <codec@ietf.org>
References: <4CBDB9C7.1020206@octasic.com>	<C8E30FAD.253DA%stewe@stewe.org>	<005b01cb6faf$7867a750$6936f5f0$@de>	<4CBDD672.2090202@octasic.com> <4CBE3B1D.8080105@jdrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Dear Jonathan,

is Skype registering Opus as trademark?

With best regards,

 Christian


---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/


-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Jonathan Rosenberg
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 2:43 AM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt

IETF has a long history of standards with names - ICE, SIP, POP, IMAP,=20
etc. These are also acronyms, but increasingly the acronyms are highly=20
contrived and are basically names (DECADE, ENUM, SALUD) and in some=20
cases just names (Sieve). However, IETF has not ever filed for=20
trademarks on any of these, and I see absolutely no reason to start now.

-Jonathan R.



On 10/19/2010 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
> Hi Christian,
>
> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this
> case, the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not =
aware
> of anyone registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context).
> I'm not against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any
> ownership is necessary to begin with.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jean-Marc
>
> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain =
of
> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue
> with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one
> who originally suggested that name.
>
> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to
>> standardized algorithms.
>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies.
>> Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>
>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the
>> trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would =
prefer
>> that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>
>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast =
they
>> (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>
>> With best regards,
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=83=C2=BCbingen
>> Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=83=C2=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>> Of Stephan Wenger
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>> To: codec@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> Four things:
>>
>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. Weak memory on my
>> side.
>> Apologies.
>>
>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has =
not
>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>
>> Third, I also missed the submission of =
draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>
>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point =
#2)
>> that
>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>> codec-description draft. Which brings me to point #4:
>>
>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.
>> Selecting
>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. "Opus" is such a =
flashy
>> name
>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like
>> it. For
>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an
>> audio
>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change. So the thing =
you
>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The
>> editors
>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. Is that acceptable =
to
>> the
>> WG?".
>>
>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken
>> shortcuts
>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. That, IMO, fills up
>> your
>> quota for the next couple of years. Please be more conservative from =
now
>> on.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several
>>> names
>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This
>>> is the
>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>
>>> Jean-Marc
>>>
>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft. In many working groups, =
the
>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in
>>>> question is
>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>. Following this logic, it would appear =
that
>>>> the
>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. I don't recall a
>>>> decision to
>>>> than extent.
>>>>
>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to
>>>> encourage
>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those
>>>> statements
>>>> with the new filename. This would help those of us who are =
searching
>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common
>>>> thing to do,
>>>> at least for me).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Stephan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 ,
>>>> "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>> directories.
>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec
>>>>> Working Group
>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Title : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>> Author(s) : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>> Pages : 12
>>>>> Date : 2010-10-15
>>>>>
>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>
>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> codec mailing list
>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

--=20
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) =
465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Wed Oct 20 00:51:08 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Stephan Wenger'" <stewe@stewe.org>, <codec@ietf.org>
References: <000c01cb6fb9$41b95910$c52c0b30$@de> <C8E34A18.253F1%stewe@stewe.org>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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Hello,

=20

as long as the IPR license conditions remain unclear to everybody =
without a legal background =E2=80=93 and even those with legal =
background describe that they could be unacceptable =E2=80=93 may I =
remind that the guidelines draft contains a sentence stating:

=20

=E2=80=9CIn cases where no RF license can be obtained regarding a =
patent, the group should consider alternative algorithms or methods, =
even if they result in lower quality, higher complexity, or otherwise =
less desirable characteristics (in most cases, the degradation will =
likely be small once the best alternative has been identified).=E2=80=9C

=20

Thus, I kindly want to remind that there is work to do and that any help =
from any side is highly appreciated. I will try to do my very best to =
overcome this current drawback.=20

What are your personal opinions, does the patent really cover only the =
DTX part of the Opus codec?

=20

With best regards,

=20

 Christian Hoene

=20

PS:

This, as, my previous emails, are just my personal opinions.

=20

PPS:

Does the IPR statement #1297 only covers the draft-vos-silk-01? Is it =
require to file a similar statement for the opus draft?

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=20

From: Stephan Wenger [mailto:stewe@stewe.org]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:14 PM
To: Christian Hoene; codec@ietf.org
Cc: 'Alfons Martin'
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing

=20

Hi Christian,

On 10.19.2010 11:12 , "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

[...]=20
Clearly, these terms are unacceptable.=20
[...]

Let me suggest that you (and everyone else) mark their opinion on =
licensing terms as your personal opinion.  What=E2=80=99s acceptable or =
inacceptable to you may very well be acceptable or inacceptable to me.

Same goes with compliance to the charter.

Stephan



On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com =
<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> > wrote:
Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has =
pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted =
as an IETF standard.

    Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing

Hello,

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.

-Pascal

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

  _____ =20

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>as long as the IPR license conditions remain unclear to
everybody without a legal background =E2=80=93 and even those with legal =
background
describe that they could be unacceptable =E2=80=93 may I remind that the =
guidelines
draft contains a sentence stating:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=E2=80=9CIn
cases where no RF license can be obtained regarding a patent, the group =
should
consider alternative algorithms or methods, even if they result in lower
quality, higher complexity, or otherwise less desirable characteristics =
(in
most cases, the degradation will likely be small once the best =
alternative has
been identified).=E2=80=9C<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thus, I kindly want to remind that there is work to do =
and that any
help from any side is highly appreciated. I will try to do my very best =
to
overcome this current drawback. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What are your personal opinions, does the patent really =
cover
only the DTX part of the Opus codec?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>With best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>=C2=A0Christian Hoene<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PS:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This, as, my previous emails, are just my personal =
opinions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PPS:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Does the IPR statement #1297 only covers the =
draft-vos-silk-01? Is
it require to file a similar statement for the opus =
draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'>=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=BCbingen <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 =
2970532 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de=
/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stephan =
Wenger
[mailto:stewe@stewe.org] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Hoene; codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Alfons Martin'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Hi Christian,<br>
<br>
On 10.19.2010 11:12 , &quot;Christian Hoene&quot; &lt;<a
href=3D"hoene@uni-tuebingen.de">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>[...]<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'> =
<br>
Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. <br>
[...]</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Let me suggest that =
you (and
everyone else) mark their opinion on licensing terms as your personal =
opinion.
&nbsp;What=E2=80=99s acceptable or inacceptable to you may very well be =
acceptable or
inacceptable to me.<br>
<br>
Same goes with compliance to the charter.<br>
<br>
Stephan<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;<a
href=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a> =
&lt;<a
href=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; =
&gt;
wrote:<br>
Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has =
pledged to
make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
standard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of
Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these =
codecs.<br>
<br>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as<br>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software =
and<br>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as =
Opus<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.<br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>

<hr size=3D3 width=3D"95%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>_________________________=
______________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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From stephen.botzko@gmail.com  Wed Oct 20 03:59:45 2010
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:01:14 -0400
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
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Is it possible to create a CODEC-IPR mailing list (or some such) to allow
folks to use the alternative list when chatting about patents and
work-arounds?

That would address some of Stephan's concerns, but still allow the
discussion to archived to an IETF list.  I'd prefer to keep out of the
patent discussions, I suspect there are others who would rather not get
those posts either.

Stephen Botzko

2010/10/20 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>

>  Hello,
>
>
>
> as long as the IPR license conditions remain unclear to everybody without=
 a
> legal background =96 and even those with legal background describe that t=
hey
> could be unacceptable =96 may I remind that the guidelines draft contains=
 a
> sentence stating:
>
>
>
> =93In cases where no RF license can be obtained regarding a patent, the g=
roup
> should consider alternative algorithms or methods, even if they result in
> lower quality, higher complexity, or otherwise less desirable
> characteristics (in most cases, the degradation will likely be small once
> the best alternative has been identified).=93
>
>
>
> Thus, I kindly want to remind that there is work to do and that any help
> from any side is highly appreciated. I will try to do my very best to
> overcome this current drawback.
>
> What are your personal opinions, does the patent really cover only the DT=
X
> part of the Opus codec?
>
>
>
> With best regards,
>
>
>
>  Christian Hoene
>
>
>
> PS:
>
> This, as, my previous emails, are just my personal opinions.
>
>
>
> PPS:
>
> Does the IPR statement #1297 only covers the draft-vos-silk-01? Is it
> require to file a similar statement for the opus draft?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
>
> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
>
>
> *From:* Stephan Wenger [mailto:stewe@stewe.org]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:14 PM
> *To:* Christian Hoene; codec@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Alfons Martin'
>
> *Subject:* Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
>
>
> Hi Christian,
>
>
> On 10.19.2010 11:12 , "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
> [...]
> Clearly, these terms are unacceptable.
> [...]
>
> Let me suggest that you (and everyone else) mark their opinion on licensi=
ng
> terms as your personal opinion.  What=92s acceptable or inacceptable to y=
ou
> may very well be acceptable or inacceptable to me.
>
> Same goes with compliance to the charter.
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
> On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com <
> jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> > wrote:
> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledge=
d
> to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
> standard.
>
>     Jean-Marc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
> Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
> Hello,
>
> we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard abo=
ut
> Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.
>
> We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license a=
s
> speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
> we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
> handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it=
.
>
> -Pascal
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>

--00163649908bf5707204930a53dc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is it possible to create a CODEC-IPR mailing list (or some such) to allow f=
olks to use the alternative list when chatting about patents and work-aroun=
ds?<br><br>That would address some of Stephan&#39;s concerns, but still all=
ow the discussion to archived to an IETF list.=A0 I&#39;d prefer to keep ou=
t of the patent discussions, I suspect there are others who would rather no=
t get those posts either.<br>
<br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/10/20 Christian H=
oene <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hoene@uni-tuebingen.de">hoene@=
uni-tuebingen.de</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">











<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"DE">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);">Hello,</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">as long as the IPR license conditions remain unclear t=
o
everybody without a legal background =96 and even those with legal backgrou=
nd
describe that they could be unacceptable =96 may I remind that the guidelin=
es
draft contains a sentence stating:</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" lang=3D"EN-US">=93=
In
cases where no RF license can be obtained regarding a patent, the group sho=
uld
consider alternative algorithms or methods, even if they result in lower
quality, higher complexity, or otherwise less desirable characteristics (in
most cases, the degradation will likely be small once the best alternative =
has
been identified).=93</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0=
</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Thus, I kindly want to remind that there is work to do=
 and that any
help from any side is highly appreciated. I will try to do my very best to
overcome this current drawback. </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">What are your personal opinions, does the patent reall=
y cover
only the DTX part of the Opus codec?</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">With best regards,</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0Christian Hoene</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">PS:</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">This, as, my previous emails, are just my personal opi=
nions.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">PPS:</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Does the IPR statement #1297 only covers the draft-vos=
-silk-01? Is
it require to file a similar statement for the opus draft?</span></p><div c=
lass=3D"im">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0=
</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------=
----------------------------------</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sys=
tems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Ge=
rmany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni=
-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></spa=
n></p>


</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

</div><div>

<div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none non=
e; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color=
; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;"> Stephan Wenger
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.or=
g</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Hoene; <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;Alfons Martin&#39;<div class=3D"im"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</div></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt;">Hi Christian,<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On 10.19.2010 11:12 , &quot;Christian Hoene&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://hoe=
ne@uni-tuebingen.de" target=3D"_blank">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</a>&gt; wrote=
:</div></div></span></p><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt;">[...]<span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> <br>
Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. <br>
[...]</span></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">Let me suggest that y=
ou (and
everyone else) mark their opinion on licensing terms as your personal opini=
on.
=A0What=92s acceptable or inacceptable to you may very well be acceptable o=
r
inacceptable to me.<br>
<br>
Same goes with compliance to the charter.<br>
<br>
Stephan</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://jea=
n-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D"_blank">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"http://jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D"_blank">jean-=
marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; &gt;
wrote:<br>
Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledged =
to
make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
standard.<br>
<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"http://codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><=
br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we&#39;ve been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard a=
bout<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<br>
<br>
We&#39;re wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license=
 as<br>
speex and celt? SILK&#39;s license forbid its use in commercial software an=
d<br>
we&#39;re worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus=
<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we&#39;ll be using =
it.<br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span></p>

<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;" align=3D"center"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt;">

<hr size=3D"3" align=3D"center" width=3D"95%">

</span></div>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fami=
ly: Consolas;">_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span></p>

</div></div></div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--00163649908bf5707204930a53dc--

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Subject: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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=09
Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you have =
advice on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to =
talk about patent issues related to the standards from this WG? =46rom a =
practical point of view, someone could easily set up a separate list =
either on the ietf.org servers or not on ietf servers.=20=

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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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So just as a point of IETF process, my understanding is the selecting of =
a WG draft is just a chair decision and not an WG consensus topic - of =
course the draft needs to be changed such that it reflects the WG =
consensus so really all the chairs are doing here is picking which =
virtual piece of paper will be used to write on. Often chairs takes hums =
to get input on this but given the lack of alternatives, and the =
consensus developing around this draft, it seemed like a pretty easy =
decision. If we made a mistake or too much of a short cut here, we =
should go fix that.=20

On the name topic, typically the WG just lets the authors of the draft =
pick a name as its often viewed as a more editorial than actual =
technical topic. If someone has some serious problem with Opus and wants =
something different, lets talk about it but I was hoping not to spend =
too much time on such a bike shed topic. Clearly if Skype has =
trademarked Opus then we are going to be having a long conversation =
about it but I'm working on the assumption that they have not done that. =
We will see what they say to the question asked.=20

Your point about updating IPR declaration is excellent - once we are =
stable on the name, we should all bug folks update the IPR disclosure to =
point at the new draft. I have been trying to keep the datatracker =
"replaced by" up to date so there is some hope of seeing what previous =
drafts are closely related to the newer draft.=20



On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:04 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:

> Hi Jean-Marc,
>=20
> Four things:
>=20
> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting.  Weak memory on my =
side.
> Apologies.
>=20
> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has =
not
> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>=20
> Third, I also missed the submission of =
draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
> which was really the time I should have complained.
>=20
> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2) =
that
> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
> codec-description draft.  Which brings me to point #4:
>=20
> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.  =
Selecting
> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change.  "Opus" is such a =
flashy name
> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like =
it.  For
> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an =
audio
> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change.  So the thing =
you
> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The =
editors
> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus.  Is that acceptable =
to the
> WG?".
>=20
> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken =
shortcuts
> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them.  That, IMO, fills up =
your
> quota for the next couple of years.  Please be more conservative from =
now
> on.
>=20
> Regards,
> Stephan
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several =
names
>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This =
is the
>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>=20
>> Jean-Marc
>>=20
>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft.  In many working groups, =
the
>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in =
question is
>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>.  Following this logic, it would appear =
that the
>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG.  I don't recall a =
decision to
>>> than extent.
>>>=20
>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to =
encourage
>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those =
statements
>>> with the new filename.  This would help those of us who are =
searching
>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common =
thing to do,
>>> at least for me).
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Stephan
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 , =
"Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>> directories.
>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec =
Working Group
>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Title           : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>> Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>> Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>> Pages           : 12
>>>> Date            : 2010-10-15
>>>>=20
>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>=20
>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>=20
>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> codec mailing list
>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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<With Skype hat on>

No.

Since the Opus codec is a product of the IETF it would make no sense for 
an individual company to trademark the name of an IETF output.

-Jonathan R.

On 10/20/2010 2:02 AM, Christian Hoene wrote:
> Dear Jonathan,
>
> is Skype registering Opus as trademark?
>
> With best regards,
>
>   Christian
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of TÃ¼bingen
> Sand 13, 72076 TÃ¼bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 2:43 AM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>
> IETF has a long history of standards with names - ICE, SIP, POP, IMAP,
> etc. These are also acronyms, but increasingly the acronyms are highly
> contrived and are basically names (DECADE, ENUM, SALUD) and in some
> cases just names (Sieve). However, IETF has not ever filed for
> trademarks on any of these, and I see absolutely no reason to start now.
>
> -Jonathan R.
>
>
>
> On 10/19/2010 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this
>> case, the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not aware
>> of anyone registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this context).
>> I'm not against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any
>> ownership is necessary to begin with.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain of
>> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue
>> with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the one
>> who originally suggested that name.
>>
>> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to
>>> standardized algorithms.
>>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some companies.
>>> Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>>
>>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the
>>> trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would prefer
>>> that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>>
>>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast they
>>> (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>>
>>> With best regards,
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of TÃƒÂ¼bingen
>>> Sand 13, 72076 TÃƒÂ¼bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Stephan Wenger
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>>> To: codec@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>>
>>> Four things:
>>>
>>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. Weak memory on my
>>> side.
>>> Apologies.
>>>
>>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that has not
>>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>>
>>> Third, I also missed the submission of draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>>
>>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point #2)
>>> that
>>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>>> codec-description draft. Which brings me to point #4:
>>>
>>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.
>>> Selecting
>>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. "Opus" is such a flashy
>>> name
>>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like
>>> it. For
>>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio an
>>> audio
>>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change. So the thing you
>>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The
>>> editors
>>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. Is that acceptable to
>>> the
>>> WG?".
>>>
>>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken
>>> shortcuts
>>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. That, IMO, fills up
>>> your
>>> quota for the next couple of years. Please be more conservative from now
>>> on.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had several
>>>> names
>>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This
>>>> is the
>>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Jean-Marc
>>>>
>>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft. In many working groups, the
>>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in
>>>>> question is
>>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>. Following this logic, it would appear that
>>>>> the
>>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. I don't recall a
>>>>> decision to
>>>>> than extent.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to
>>>>> encourage
>>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those
>>>>> statements
>>>>> with the new filename. This would help those of us who are searching
>>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common
>>>>> thing to do,
>>>>> at least for me).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Stephan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 ,
>>>>> "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>>> directories.
>>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec
>>>>>> Working Group
>>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Title : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>>> Author(s) : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>> Pages : 12
>>>>>> Date : 2010-10-15
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) 465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net



From stewe@stewe.org  Wed Oct 20 09:42:47 2010
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From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: "fluffy@cisco.com" <fluffy@cisco.com>, <codec@ietf.org>
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Hi,

Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.  There is
IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as you
mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest for those
interested in this work.

My preference would be that this list has a subscription process independent
from the subscription to codec@ietf.org.  As the minimum, there must be an
opt-out process.

I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make
people on codec@ietf.org aware of the existence of the list and the ongoing
discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested design
choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be citations of
patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.

Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical new
list.

Stephan


On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

> 
> Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you have advice
> on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to talk about
> patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a practical point of
> view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the ietf.org
> servers or not on ietf servers. 



From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Wed Oct 20 10:01:09 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
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Dear Jonathan Rosenberg and Jean-Marc Valin,

Thank you very much for answering fast and clearly.=20

As the decision on the name of the codec was made behind closed doors, I =
had to ask the question on the trademark. Now, after publishing the =
codec's name, it should be more difficult for a third party to clam a =
trademark on it.

Sincerely

 Christian

PS:
Yes, Opus is an excellent name that has a nice allusion to music.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20
Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:17 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt

<With Skype hat on>

No.

Since the Opus codec is a product of the IETF it would make no sense for =

an individual company to trademark the name of an IETF output.

-Jonathan R.

On 10/20/2010 2:02 AM, Christian Hoene wrote:
> Dear Jonathan,
>
> is Skype registering Opus as trademark?
>
> With best regards,
>
>   Christian
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen
> Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Jonathan Rosenberg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 2:43 AM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>
> IETF has a long history of standards with names - ICE, SIP, POP, IMAP,
> etc. These are also acronyms, but increasingly the acronyms are highly
> contrived and are basically names (DECADE, ENUM, SALUD) and in some
> cases just names (Sieve). However, IETF has not ever filed for
> trademarks on any of these, and I see absolutely no reason to start =
now.
>
> -Jonathan R.
>
>
>
> On 10/19/2010 1:33 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> I don't know the details of the ITU-T trademark issues, but in this
>> case, the Opus name will not be controlled by any company (I'm not =
aware
>> of anyone registering a trademark on the "Opus" name in this =
context).
>> I'm not against the IETF owning the trademark, but I'm not sure any
>> ownership is necessary to begin with.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> As a note, my company does use the term "Opus" in a different domain =
of
>> application (digital signal processor architecture) and sees no issue
>> with the IETF using it for an audio codec. Oh, and no, I'm not the =
one
>> who originally suggested that name.
>>
>> On 10-10-19 01:02 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> the ITU had some problems with trademarks that were given to
>>> standardized algorithms.
>>> As far as I remember, PESQ or PEAQ are trademarked by some =
companies.
>>> Since then, the ITU-T name their standards only by numbers.
>>>
>>> I do not have any problems with nicknames. However, I think the
>>> trademark issue shall be addressed and it is important. I would =
prefer
>>> that such as trademark is owned by the IETF if possible.
>>>
>>> Uspto.gov does not list an opus codec. But I do not know how fast =
they
>>> (or the readers of this mailing list) are...
>>>
>>> With best regards,
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>>> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=83=C2=BCbingen
>>> Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=83=C2=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>>> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
>>> Of Stephan Wenger
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:05 PM
>>> To: codec@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>>
>>> Four things:
>>>
>>> First, indeed, there was a hum at the last meeting. Weak memory on =
my
>>> side.
>>> Apologies.
>>>
>>> Second, hums need to be reconfirmed on the mailing list, and that =
has not
>>> happened according to my read of the email archive.
>>>
>>> Third, I also missed the submission of =
draft-ietf-codec-description-00,
>>> which was really the time I should have complained.
>>>
>>> So I'm willing to assume (as apparently have the chairs, see point =
#2)
>>> that
>>> there has been an implied consensus of the WG to accept the
>>> codec-description draft. Which brings me to point #4:
>>>
>>> As this is now a WG item, any major change requires WG consensus.
>>> Selecting
>>> a marketing name, IMO, is such a major change. "Opus" is such a =
flashy
>>> name
>>> that certain participants and/or companies conceivably may not like
>>> it. For
>>> example, if I were working for a company that has in its portfolio =
an
>>> audio
>>> product named "Opus", I would object to the name change. So the =
thing you
>>> should have done, IMO, is to send an email to the list saying "The
>>> editors
>>> consider changing the name of our codec to Opus. Is that acceptable =
to
>>> the
>>> WG?".
>>>
>>> It appears to me that twice you guys (chairs included) have taken
>>> shortcuts
>>> with the IETF's procedures, as I understand them. That, IMO, fills =
up
>>> your
>>> quota for the next couple of years. Please be more conservative from =
now
>>> on.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10.19.2010 08:31 , "Jean-Marc Valin"<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt is indeed a WG item. It has had =
several
>>>> names
>>>> in the past, including draft-valin-codec-prototype and
>>>> draft-valin-codec-definition, which may explain the confusion. This
>>>> is the
>>>> draft for which there was a hum during the last meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Jean-Marc
>>>>
>>>> On 10-10-19 11:26 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to inquire the status of this draft. In many working =
groups, the
>>>>> filename "draft-ietf-<wg name>-xxx" indicates that the draft in
>>>>> question is
>>>>> a WG item of WG<wg-name>. Following this logic, it would appear =
that
>>>>> the
>>>>> "opus" draft is now a WG item of the codec WG. I don't recall a
>>>>> decision to
>>>>> than extent.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the draft were indeed accepted as a WG item, I would like to
>>>>> encourage
>>>>> those who made IPR statements related to it, to resubmit those
>>>>> statements
>>>>> with the new filename. This would help those of us who are =
searching
>>>>> through the IETF IPR tracker by WG name (which is a very common
>>>>> thing to do,
>>>>> at least for me).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Stephan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10.15.2010 13:30 ,
>>>>> "Internet-Drafts@ietf.org"<Internet-Drafts@ietf.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts
>>>>>> directories.
>>>>>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec
>>>>>> Working Group
>>>>>> of the IETF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Title : Definition of the Opus Audio Codec
>>>>>> Author(s) : J. Valin, K. Vos
>>>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>> Pages : 12
>>>>>> Date : 2010-10-15
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This document describes the Opus codec, designed for interactive
>>>>>> speech and audio transmission over the Internet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-opus-00.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>>>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> codec mailing list
>>>>> codec@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

--=20
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) =
465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net



From stephen.botzko@gmail.com  Wed Oct 20 10:02:12 2010
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References: <A66288EA-F78B-4D77-A1A1-2B16A34A4A02@cisco.com> <C8E46991.25438%stewe@stewe.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:03:41 -0400
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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+1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.

I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do not
want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the main list.

Stephen Botzko


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.  There is
> IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as you
> mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest for those
> interested in this work.
>
> My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
> independent
> from the subscription to codec@ietf.org.  As the minimum, there must be an
> opt-out process.
>
> I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make
> people on codec@ietf.org aware of the existence of the list and the
> ongoing
> discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested design
> choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
> technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be citations of
> patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.
>
> Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical new
> list.
>
> Stephan
>
>
> On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you have
> advice
> > on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to talk about
> > patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a practical
> point of
> > view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the ietf.org
> > servers or not on ietf servers.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

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+1, I&#39;d like to see it handled precisely this way.=A0 <br><br>I think i=
t provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do not want expos=
ure to patent details to continue to participate on the main list.<br><br>
Stephen Botzko<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 a=
t 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@st=
ewe.org">stewe@stewe.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204=
, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea. =A0There i=
s<br>
IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list. =A0But, as you<br=
>
mentioned, there are also other options. =A0Whatever is the easiest for tho=
se<br>
interested in this work.<br>
<br>
My preference would be that this list has a subscription process independen=
t<br>
from the subscription to <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</=
a>. =A0As the minimum, there must be an<br>
opt-out process.<br>
<br>
I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make<br>
people on <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> aware of the=
 existence of the list and the ongoing<br>
discussions, in a summarized form. =A0I also don&#39;t mind if suggested de=
sign<br>
choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where<br>
technical discussions are being held. =A0The borderline would be citations =
of<br>
patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.<br>
<br>
Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical new<br=
>
list.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Stephan<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On 10.20.2010 06:42 , &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisc=
o.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you have =
advice<br>
&gt; on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to talk ab=
out<br>
&gt; patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a practical =
point of<br>
&gt; view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the <a hre=
f=3D"http://ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; servers or not on ietf servers.<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--0016e6db5c26375eeb04930f6460--

From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Wed Oct 20 10:26:35 2010
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:27:55 -0400
From: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Hi,

Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding 
IPR. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the 
other is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should 
remain on this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt 
with in private. I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing 
patent claims in a publicly archived list. I don't think even having that 
on a separate list is a good idea and I'm not interested in participating 
in such a list should it be created.

      Jean-Marc

On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
> +1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.
>
> I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
> not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
> main list.
>
> Stephen Botzko
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org
> <mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
>       There is
>     IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as you
>     mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest
>     for those
>     interested in this work.
>
>     My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
>     independent
>     from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>.  As
>     the minimum, there must be an
>     opt-out process.
>
>     I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make
>     people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the
>     existence of the list and the ongoing
>     discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested
>     design
>     choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
>     technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be
>     citations of
>     patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.
>
>     Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical new
>     list.
>
>     Stephan
>
>
>     On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"
>     <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>      >
>      > Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
>     have advice
>      > on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
>     talk about
>      > patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
>     practical point of
>      > view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the
>     ietf.org <http://ietf.org>
>      > servers or not on ietf servers.
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     codec mailing list
>     codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stephen.botzko@gmail.com  Wed Oct 20 10:40:56 2010
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Stephan's suggestion on the boundary  "citations of patent language,
including patent numbers and claim language" is consistent with your
boundary.  Detailed analysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumably
include patent language.  General discussion of license terms would not.

Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't
matter to me if it is publicly archived or not.

Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters to
go off-line for a private discussion.  One practical issue is that the folks
who do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify themselves.
I'm thinking that providing the second list might make that easier.  Though
perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about patent claims?

Stephen Botzko

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <
jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding
> IPR. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the
> other is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should
> remain on this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt
> with in private. I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing
> patent claims in a publicly archived list. I don't think even having that on
> a separate list is a good idea and I'm not interested in participating in
> such a list should it be created.
>
>     Jean-Marc
>
>
> On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
>
>> +1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.
>>
>> I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
>> not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
>> main list.
>>
>> Stephen Botzko
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org
>> <mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:
>>
>>    Hi,
>>
>>    Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
>>      There is
>>    IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as you
>>    mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest
>>    for those
>>    interested in this work.
>>
>>    My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
>>    independent
>>    from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>.  As
>>
>>    the minimum, there must be an
>>    opt-out process.
>>
>>    I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make
>>    people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the
>>
>>    existence of the list and the ongoing
>>    discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested
>>    design
>>    choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
>>    technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be
>>    citations of
>>    patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.
>>
>>    Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical
>> new
>>    list.
>>
>>    Stephan
>>
>>
>>    On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"
>>
>>    <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     >
>>     > Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
>>    have advice
>>     > on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
>>    talk about
>>     > patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
>>    practical point of
>>     > view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the
>>    ietf.org <http://ietf.org>
>>
>>     > servers or not on ietf servers.
>>
>>
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    codec mailing list
>>    codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>>
>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>
>

--001636b2bbebd7d45304930feede
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stephan&#39;s suggestion on the boundary=A0 &quot;citations of patent langu=
age, including patent numbers and claim language&quot; is consistent with y=
our boundary.=A0 Detailed analysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumab=
ly include patent language.=A0 General discussion of license terms would no=
t.<br>
<br>Since I wouldn&#39;t subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doe=
sn&#39;t matter to me if it is publicly archived or not.=A0 <br><br>Based o=
n past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters to go off=
-line for a private discussion.=A0 One practical issue is that the folks wh=
o do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify themselves.=A0=
 I&#39;m thinking that providing the second list might make that easier.=A0=
 Though perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about patent claims=
?<br>
<br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 a=
t 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jean-mar=
c.valin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
Just to make things clear, I think there&#39;s two sets of issues regarding=
 IPR. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the=
 other is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should rem=
ain on this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt wi=
th in private. I don&#39;t think there is anything to be gained in discussi=
ng patent claims in a publicly archived list. I don&#39;t think even having=
 that on a separate list is a good idea and I&#39;m not interested in parti=
cipating in such a list should it be created.<br>

<br>
 =A0 =A0 Jean-Marc<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=
=3D"im">
+1, I&#39;d like to see it handled precisely this way.<br>
<br>
I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do<br>
not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the<br>
main list.<br>
<br>
Stephen Botzko<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stew=
e@stewe.org" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a><br></div><div class=3D"i=
m">
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe=
.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Hi,<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.<br=
>
 =A0 =A0 =A0There is<br>
 =A0 =A0IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list. =A0But, a=
s you<br>
 =A0 =A0mentioned, there are also other options. =A0Whatever is the easiest=
<br>
 =A0 =A0for those<br>
 =A0 =A0interested in this work.<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0My preference would be that this list has a subscription process<br=
>
 =A0 =A0independent<br></div>
 =A0 =A0from the subscription to <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;. =A0As<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =A0 =A0the minimum, there must be an<br>
 =A0 =A0opt-out process.<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, m=
ake<br></div>
 =A0 =A0people on <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec=
@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; aware of the<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =A0 =A0existence of the list and the ongoing<br>
 =A0 =A0discussions, in a summarized form. =A0I also don&#39;t mind if sugg=
ested<br>
 =A0 =A0design<br>
 =A0 =A0choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where=
<br>
 =A0 =A0technical discussions are being held. =A0The borderline would be<br=
>
 =A0 =A0citations of<br>
 =A0 =A0patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetica=
l new<br>
 =A0 =A0list.<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Stephan<br>
<br>
<br></div>
 =A0 =A0On 10.20.2010 06:42 , &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cis=
co.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;&quot;<div class=3D"im"><=
br>
 =A0 =A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@ci=
sco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 &gt;<br>
 =A0 =A0 &gt; Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do =
you<br>
 =A0 =A0have advice<br>
 =A0 =A0 &gt; on if we should set up a separate list for people that want t=
o<br>
 =A0 =A0talk about<br>
 =A0 =A0 &gt; patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a<b=
r>
 =A0 =A0practical point of<br>
 =A0 =A0 &gt; view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on t=
he<br></div>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf.org</a> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">http://ietf.org</a>&gt;<div class=
=3D"im"><br>
 =A0 =A0 &gt; servers or not on ietf servers.<br>
<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0_______________________________________________<br>
 =A0 =A0codec mailing list<br></div>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org<=
/a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br>

--001636b2bbebd7d45304930feede--

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From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@juniper.net>
To: "'stephen.botzko@gmail.com'" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "'jean-marc.valin@octasic.com'" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:50:00 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Stephen Botzko'" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "'Jean-Marc Valin'" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
References: <A66288EA-F78B-4D77-A1A1-2B16A34A4A02@cisco.com>	<C8E46991.25438%stewe@stewe.org>	<AANLkTi=sEkHoCQBa4asNYYUeVJ+NSP3y4yHitaauOJxj@mail.gmail.com>	<4CBF269B.8090609@octasic.com> <AANLkTik520rMCYKd5uMD5cTaoWU=K7Pb8kDgSq959UB+@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik520rMCYKd5uMD5cTaoWU=K7Pb8kDgSq959UB+@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:56:51 +0200
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Sorry guys,

=20

For posting patent related language and number on the mailing list.  As =
a researcher living and working under the German legal system, I am not =
subject to the same legal dangers as you. Thus, I was not aware which =
implications my citations of patents might have to you.=20

My apologies again.

=20

Instead a second mailing list, I would suggest to establish a written =
netiquette (or rule) that nobody on this mailing post any "citations of =
patent language, including patent numbers and claim language".=20

=20

Yes, I promise, I will not do it again.

=20

Christian

=20

=20

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=20

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Stephen Botzko
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:42 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?

=20

Stephan's suggestion on the boundary  "citations of patent language, =
including patent numbers and claim language" is consistent with your =
boundary.  Detailed analysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumably =
include patent language.  General discussion of license terms would not.

Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't =
matter to me if it is publicly archived or not. =20

Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters =
to go off-line for a private discussion.  One practical issue is that =
the folks who do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify =
themselves.  I'm thinking that providing the second list might make that =
easier.  Though perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about =
patent claims?

Stephen Botzko

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin =
<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote:

Hi,

Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding =
IPR. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and =
the other is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former =
should remain on this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) =
best dealt with in private. I don't think there is anything to be gained =
in discussing patent claims in a publicly archived list. I don't think =
even having that on a separate list is a good idea and I'm not =
interested in participating in such a list should it be created.

    Jean-Marc



On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:

+1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.

I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
main list.

Stephen Botzko


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org

<mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:

   Hi,

   Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
     There is
   IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as =
you
   mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest
   for those
   interested in this work.

   My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
   independent

   from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>.  As


   the minimum, there must be an
   opt-out process.

   I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, =
make

   people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the


   existence of the list and the ongoing
   discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested
   design
   choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
   technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be
   citations of
   patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.

   Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical =
new
   list.

   Stephan



   On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"


   <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:

    >
    > Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
   have advice
    > on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
   talk about
    > patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
   practical point of
    > view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the

   ietf.org <http://ietf.org>


    > servers or not on ietf servers.


   _______________________________________________
   codec mailing list

   codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>


   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec




_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sorry guys,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For posting patent related language and number on the =
mailing
list. =C2=A0As a researcher living and working under the German legal =
system, I am
not subject to the same legal dangers as you. Thus, I was not aware =
which
implications my citations of patents might have to you. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My apologies again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Instead a second mailing list, I would suggest to =
establish a written
netiquette (or rule) that nobody on this mailing post any </span><span
lang=3DEN-US>&quot;citations of patent language, including patent =
numbers and
claim language&quot;. </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Yes, I promise, I will not do it =
again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Christian<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=BCbingen <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 =
2970532 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de=
/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Stephen
Botzko<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin<br>
<b>Cc:</b> codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR =
discutions?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Stephan's suggestion =
on the
boundary&nbsp; &quot;citations of patent language, including patent =
numbers and
claim language&quot; is consistent with your boundary.&nbsp; Detailed =
analysis
of proposed work-arounds, would presumably include patent =
language.&nbsp;
General discussion of license terms would not.<br>
<br>
Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't =
matter
to me if it is publicly archived or not.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters =
to go
off-line for a private discussion.&nbsp; One practical issue is that the =
folks
who do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify
themselves.&nbsp; I'm thinking that providing the second list might make =
that
easier.&nbsp; Though perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk =
about
patent claims?<br>
<br>
Stephen Botzko<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</=
a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<br>
<br>
Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding =
IPR.
One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the =
other is
discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should remain on =
this
list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt with in =
private. I
don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing patent claims =
in a
publicly archived list. I don't think even having that on a separate =
list is a good
idea and I'm not interested in participating in such a list should it be
created.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Jean-Marc<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>+1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this =
way.<br>
<br>
I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who =
do<br>
not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on =
the<br>
main list.<br>
<br>
Stephen Botzko<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" =
target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" =
target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a>&gt;&gt;
wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Hi,<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent =
idea.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;There is<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.
&nbsp;But, as you<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;mentioned, there are also other options. &nbsp;Whatever is =
the
easiest<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;for those<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;interested in this work.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;My preference would be that this list has a subscription =
process<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;independent<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;from the subscription to <a
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;. =
&nbsp;As<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;the minimum, there must be an<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;opt-out process.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, =
periodically,
make<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;people on <a =
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org"
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org"
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; aware of the<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;existence of the list and the ongoing<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;discussions, in a summarized form. &nbsp;I also don't mind =
if
suggested<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;design<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the =
list
where<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;technical discussions are being held. &nbsp;The borderline =
would
be<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;citations of<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;patent language, including patent numbers and claim =
language.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this
hypothetical new<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;list.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;Stephan<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;On 10.20.2010 06:42 , &quot;<a
href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a> =
&lt;mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;&quot;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a>
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com" =
target=3D"_blank">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;
wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &gt;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like =
this, do
you<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;have advice<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; on if we should set up a separate list for people =
that want
to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;talk about<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; patent issues related to the standards from this WG? =
>From a<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;practical point of<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; view, someone could easily set up a separate list =
either on
the<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"http://ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">ietf.org</a>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">http://ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &gt; servers or not on ietf servers.<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;_______________________________________________<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;codec mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec"
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><o:p></o=
:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

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From stewe@stewe.org  Wed Oct 20 11:38:39 2010
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:39:56 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8E4858C.2544A%stewe@stewe.org>
Thread-Topic: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Hi Jean-Marc, all,

I have said this before: discussions about commercial terms, if not
conducted very carefully by very knowledgeable people, can have grave
consequences to the individuals involved and their employers.  I bet the
majority of the list participants don't have the authority to discuss
anything like this, which may lead to an unbalanced picture.  Therefore, I
prefer to have those discussions conducted elsewhere as well, and among the
willing only.

If you insist on discussing commercial terms and licensing declarations, you
may wish to reduce the risks for yourself and the community by

-never discuss any $$$ amounts, i.e. the monetary compensation part of
licensing,
-be very careful when discussing other benefits of a licensing model you
prefer, and avoid implying that certain industries may benefit from it more
than others, 
-never imply that your statements apply to anyone but yourself, unless you
are authorized by that "anyone" (be it community, company, whatever), and
-avoiding categorical statements "we can't do this and that because".
Rather use "we should not do this and that because", or, better, "I prefer
not to do this and that because".

Stephan

P.s.: I fully understand and appreciate that most or all of our statements
in the IETF are made by us as individuals.


On 10.20.2010 10:27 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding
> IPR. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the
> other is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should
> remain on this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt
> with in private. I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing
> patent claims in a publicly archived list. I don't think even having that
> on a separate list is a good idea and I'm not interested in participating
> in such a list should it be created.
> 
>       Jean-Marc
> 
> On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
>> +1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.
>> 
>> I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
>> not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
>> main list.
>> 
>> Stephen Botzko
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org
>> <mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>     Hi,
>> 
>>     Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
>>       There is
>>     IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as you
>>     mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest
>>     for those
>>     interested in this work.
>> 
>>     My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
>>     independent
>>     from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>.  As
>>     the minimum, there must be an
>>     opt-out process.
>> 
>>     I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make
>>     people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the
>>     existence of the list and the ongoing
>>     discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested
>>     design
>>     choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
>>     technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be
>>     citations of
>>     patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.
>> 
>>     Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical new
>>     list.
>> 
>>     Stephan
>> 
>> 
>>     On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"
>>     <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
>>     have advice
>>> on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
>>     talk about
>>> patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
>>     practical point of
>>> view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the
>>     ietf.org <http://ietf.org>
>>> servers or not on ietf servers.
>> 
>> 
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     codec mailing list
>>     codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 



From stewe@stewe.org  Wed Oct 20 11:43:27 2010
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:43:38 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@juniper.net>, "'stephen.botzko@gmail.com'" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "'jean-marc.valin@octasic.com'" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Thread-Topic: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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For the record: Without being interested in any discussion in this venue, I
disagree with your statement =B3Being _willfully_ ignorant of your obligation=
s
which you would otherwise know about is just willfully infringing in a
pretty dress.=B2. =20

I support the rest of your email.
Stephan


On 10.20.2010 10:50 , "Gregory Maxwell" <gmaxwell@juniper.net> wrote:

>=20
> There is, has been, and will be plenty of discussion in _private_.   Bein=
g
> _willfully_ ignorant of your obligations which you would otherwise know a=
bout
> is just willfully infringing in a pretty dress.
>=20
> The goal of the developers here is to not infringe on third part patents.=
 Full
> stop.
>=20
> The objection is to a public discussion- because patent discussion must b=
e
> informed by the relevant experts, because it no one wants to be dragged i=
n to
> testify on random patents, and because exposing your strategy to a possib=
le
> attacker makes it weaker, etc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
> To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
> Cc: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wed Oct 20 10:42:27 2010
> Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
> Stephan's suggestion on the boundary=A0 "citations of patent language, incl=
uding
> patent numbers and claim language" is consistent with your boundary.=A0 Det=
ailed
> analysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumably include patent langua=
ge.=A0
> General discussion of license terms would not.
>=20
> Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't m=
atter
> to me if it is publicly archived or not.=A0
>=20
> Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters =
to go
> off-line for a private discussion.=A0 One practical issue is that the folks=
 who
> do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify themselves.=A0 I=
'm
> thinking that providing the second list might make that easier.=A0 Though
> perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about patent claims?
>=20
> Stephen Botzko
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic=
.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding =
IPR.
>> One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the ot=
her
>> is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should remain =
on
>> this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt with i=
n
>> private. I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing pate=
nt
>> claims in a publicly archived list. I don't think even having that on a
>> separate list is a good idea and I'm not interested in participating in =
such
>> a list should it be created.
>>=20
>>  =A0 =A0 Jean-Marc
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
>>> +1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.
>>>=20
>>> I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
>>> not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
>>> main list.
>>>=20
>>> Stephen Botzko
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org
>>> <mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0Hi,
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
>>>  =A0 =A0 =A0There is
>>>  =A0 =A0IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list. =A0But, as =
you
>>>  =A0 =A0mentioned, there are also other options. =A0Whatever is the easiest
>>>  =A0 =A0for those
>>>  =A0 =A0interested in this work.
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
>>>  =A0 =A0independent
>>>  =A0 =A0from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>. =A0A=
s
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0the minimum, there must be an
>>>  =A0 =A0opt-out process.
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, m=
ake
>>>  =A0 =A0people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0existence of the list and the ongoing
>>>  =A0 =A0discussions, in a summarized form. =A0I also don't mind if suggested
>>>  =A0 =A0design
>>>  =A0 =A0choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
>>>  =A0 =A0technical discussions are being held. =A0The borderline would be
>>>  =A0 =A0citations of
>>>  =A0 =A0patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetica=
l new
>>>  =A0 =A0list.
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0Stephan
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0<fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0 >
>>>  =A0 =A0 > Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
>>>  =A0 =A0have advice
>>>  =A0 =A0 > on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
>>>  =A0 =A0talk about
>>>  =A0 =A0 > patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
>>>  =A0 =A0practical point of
>>>  =A0 =A0 > view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the
>>>  =A0 =A0ietf.org <http://ietf.org>  <http://ietf.org>
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0 > servers or not on ietf servers.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0_______________________________________________
>>>  =A0 =A0codec mailing list
>>>  =A0 =A0codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>>>=20
>>>  =A0 =A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


--B_3370419830_3398599
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	charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>For the record: Without being interested in any discussion in this venue, =
I disagree with your statement &#8220;</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:1=
1pt'><FONT COLOR=3D"#00007F"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Being _willfully_ ignorant of =
your obligations which you would otherwise know about is just willfully infr=
inging in a pretty dress.</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helveti=
ca, Arial">&#8221;. &nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
I support the rest of your email.<BR>
Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10.20.2010 10:50 , &quot;Gregory Maxwell&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"gmaxwell@jun=
iper.net">gmaxwell@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080=
"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
There is, has been, and will be plenty of discussion in _private_. &nbsp;&n=
bsp;Being _willfully_ ignorant of your obligations which you would otherwise=
 know about is just willfully infringing in a pretty dress.<BR>
<BR>
The goal of the developers here is to not infringe on third part patents. F=
ull stop.<BR>
<BR>
The objection is to a public discussion- because patent discussion must be =
informed by the relevant experts, because it no one wants to be dragged in t=
o testify on random patents, and because exposing your strategy to a possibl=
e attacker makes it weaker, etc.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"2" WIDTH=3D"100%"></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Tahoma, Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><B>From</B>: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; <BR>
<B>To</B>: Jean-Marc Valin &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com">jean-m=
arc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; <BR>
<B>Cc</B>: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"codec@i=
etf.org">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; <BR>
<B>Sent</B>: Wed Oct 20 10:42:27 2010<BR>
<B>Subject</B>: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions? <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Stephan's suggestion=
 on the boundary=A0 &quot;citations of patent language, including patent numbe=
rs and claim language&quot; is consistent with your boundary.=A0 Detailed anal=
ysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumably include patent language.=A0 Ge=
neral discussion of license terms would not.<BR>
<BR>
Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't mat=
ter to me if it is publicly archived or not.=A0 <BR>
<BR>
Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters to=
 go off-line for a private discussion.=A0 One practical issue is that the folk=
s who do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify themselves.=
=A0 I'm thinking that providing the second list might make that easier.=A0 Thoug=
h perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about patent claims?<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Botzko<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin &lt;<a href=3D"jean-marc.val=
in@octasic.com">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri,=
 Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Hi,<BR>
<BR>
Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding IPR=
. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the othe=
r is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should remain on=
 this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt with in p=
rivate. I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing patent cl=
aims in a publicly archived list. I don't think even having that on a separa=
te list is a good idea and I'm not interested in participating in such a lis=
t should it be created.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 Jean-Marc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri,=
 Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">+1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this wa=
y.<BR>
<BR>
I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do<BR>
not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the<BR>
main list.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Botzko<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger &lt;<a href=3D"stewe@stewe.o=
rg">stewe@stewe.org</a><BR>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org&gt;">mailto:stewe@stewe.org&gt;</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0Hi,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.<B=
R>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 =A0There is<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list. =A0But, as=
 you<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0mentioned, there are also other options. =A0Whatever is the easiest<=
BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0for those<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0interested in this work.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0My preference would be that this list has a subscription process<B=
R>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0independent<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0from the subscription to <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</=
a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">mailto:codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;. =A0As<BR=
>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0the minimum, there must be an<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0opt-out process.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, =
make<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0people on <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:codec@ietf.org">mailto:codec@ietf.org</a>&gt; aware of the<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0existence of the list and the ongoing<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0discussions, in a summarized form. =A0I also don't mind if suggested=
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0design<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list wher=
e<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0technical discussions are being held. =A0The borderline would be<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0citations of<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetic=
al new<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0list.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0Stephan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0On 10.20.2010 06:42 , &quot;<a href=3D"fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisc=
o.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com&gt;">mailto:fluffy@cisco.com&=
gt;</a>&quot;<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0&lt;<a href=3D"fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:fluffy@cisco.com&gt;">mailto:fluffy@cisco.com&gt;</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 &gt;<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 &gt; Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do=
 you<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0have advice<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 &gt; on if we should set up a separate list for people that want =
to<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0talk about<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 &gt; patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a<=
BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0practical point of<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 &gt; view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on =
the<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"http://ietf.org">http://ietf.org</a>&gt; &nb=
sp;&lt;<a href=3D"http://ietf.org">http://ietf.org</a>&gt;<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0 &gt; servers or not on ietf servers.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0_______________________________________________<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0codec mailing list<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:co=
dec@ietf.org">mailto:codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;=A0 =A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
codec mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/codec</a><BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri=
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, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
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CE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>___________=
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codec mailing list<BR>
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From gmaxwell@juniper.net  Wed Oct 20 15:39:19 2010
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From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@juniper.net>
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>, "'stephen.botzko@gmail.com'" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "'jean-marc.valin@octasic.com'" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 15:39:34 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Stephan,

I think that many of us appreciate your cautionary advice and the benefit o=
f your experience. I certainly do.

But I think participants also need to be careful to take it only as caution=
ary advice and not the gospel truth. I doubt you want your words to create =
FUD and thereby make participants here afraid to act, but I think your use =
such confident and firm language may sometimes have that effect. This risk =
of reasonable caution having the unintended effect of FUD is especially gre=
at when your comments are vague.  E.g. I understand why you might advise ag=
ainst discussing licensing terms in some places=97 due to concerns about cr=
eating collusion problems=97  but I can not fathom how an antitrust issues =
could arise when discussing free-to-all licensing. Licensing terms are rout=
inely discussed in the context of free software projects, even with the inv=
olvement of billion dollar corporations.  Your comments on the issue of lic=
ensing weren't even specific enough for me to ask an attorney if you're rig=
ht or not.  Responses like that create a cloud of FUD which removes enlight=
enment rather than creating it.

Some of the advice you've given here directly contradicts the advice I've r=
eceived from council.  I would encourage people here interested in legal is=
sues consult their own council and obtain an analysis specific to their own=
 circumstances and needs.

In particular, the issue of "willful infringement" seems to frequently suff=
er from substantial misinformation or, really, out of date information. The=
 information you've provided here is, to the best of my understanding, inco=
rrect.

The effective standard for willful infringement applied by US courts change=
d a few years ago as a result of In re Seagate[1].   After a brief search I=
 found this reasonable looking overview which reflects the current state of=
 the world: http://www.patentbaristas.com/archives/2007/08/24/is-the-tide-o=
f-willful-patent-infringement-litigation-receding/ (but there are a great m=
any other writeups about this case out there). Things also appear to be sta=
tionary on this new precedent (the supreme court declined an appeal of this=
 decision).

The exact nuance of what behaviour is sufficiently reckless to constitute w=
illful infringement in the context of the In re Seagate decision is still a=
n evolving area. But the old 'you must get a pass from a patent attorney ev=
ery time you see a patent number' is simply no longer true. The various new=
s and journal articles on this case discuss this subject in depth.=20

The increasingly common advice now given to software developers interested =
in creating non-infringing software is "read the patents", even for people =
without the benefit of the active involvement of a patent attorney. People =
without a lot of background in this area may find this article to be very i=
nformative: http://news.swpat.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patents/

Almost nowhere in law does _intentionally_ blinding yourself because you be=
lieve that you will likely find something which creates obligations actuall=
y relieve you of those obligations (go look up "constructive knowledge"), s=
o we shouldn't be surprised to find patent law reflecting this greater patt=
ern.

In particular I should draw your attention to SEB S.A. v. Montgomery Ward &=
 Co., Inc.[2]  where the court determined that "deliberate indifference"  w=
as equivalent to specific intent=97 a requirement for a claim of inducement=
.

The matter is certainly not clear or settled=97 which is why I strongly enc=
ourage people to consult their own council=97  but it appears clear that ri=
sk of awareness of patent claims is being significantly overstated and the =
suggestion that one can get away with intentionally avoiding knowing seems =
to be both legally risky and socially reprehensible.

Besides=97 there are plenty of good reasons to not spend time looking at pa=
tent claims besides believing that you'll learn about something troublesome=
:  It's somewhat difficult and time consuming.    If you believe that parti=
cipation here is so dangerous that you can only do so safely by being wilfu=
lly blind to the specifics of risks that you believe you exist, then perhap=
s you should reconsider your participation.

I want to reiterate that in spite of the above that I'm also not interested=
 in having a public patent discussion here or on another list but I want to=
 make it clear that my lack of interest has nothing to do with an attempt t=
o avoid knowing about patent risk.  I know risk exists and I want to be mad=
e aware of existing patents which may pose a risk for the usability or roya=
lty free status of the codec. I have been involved in the review of patents=
 for implications on the involved codec(s), and there will be more review a=
s the work continues. I just don't believe that a public discussion is a pr=
oductive way to conduct this activity.  And I believe this statement is tru=
e for all the technical contributors to our current codec.

Cheers,


[1] http://www.fedcir.gov/opinions/M830.pdf
[2] http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-federal-circuit/1506829.html / http://www=
.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/09-1099.pdf (real link se=
ems to be down)


________________________________________
From: Stephan Wenger [stewe@stewe.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:43 PM
To: Gregory Maxwell; 'stephen.botzko@gmail.com'; 'jean-marc.valin@octasic.c=
om'
Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?

For the record: Without being interested in any discussion in this venue, I=
 disagree with your statement =93Being _willfully_ ignorant of your obligat=
ions which you would otherwise know about is just willfully infringing in a=
 pretty dress.=94.

I support the rest of your email.
Stephan


On 10.20.2010 10:50 , "Gregory Maxwell" <gmaxwell@juniper.net> wrote:


There is, has been, and will be plenty of discussion in _private_.   Being =
_willfully_ ignorant of your obligations which you would otherwise know abo=
ut is just willfully infringing in a pretty dress.

The goal of the developers here is to not infringe on third part patents. F=
ull stop.

The objection is to a public discussion- because patent discussion must be =
informed by the relevant experts, because it no one wants to be dragged in =
to testify on random patents, and because exposing your strategy to a possi=
ble attacker makes it weaker, etc.





________________________________
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
Cc: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
Sent: Wed Oct 20 10:42:27 2010
Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
Stephan's suggestion on the boundary  "citations of patent language, includ=
ing patent numbers and claim language" is consistent with your boundary.  D=
etailed analysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumably include patent =
language.  General discussion of license terms would not.

Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't mat=
ter to me if it is publicly archived or not.

Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters to=
 go off-line for a private discussion.  One practical issue is that the fol=
ks who do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify themselve=
s.  I'm thinking that providing the second list might make that easier.  Th=
ough perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about patent claims?

Stephen Botzko

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.c=
om> wrote:
Hi,

Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding IPR=
. One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the oth=
er is discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should remain =
on this list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt with i=
n private. I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing paten=
t claims in a publicly archived list. I don't think even having that on a s=
eparate list is a good idea and I'm not interested in participating in such=
 a list should it be created.

     Jean-Marc


On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
+1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.

I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
main list.

Stephen Botzko


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org
<mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:

    Hi,

    Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
      There is
    IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as you
    mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest
    for those
    interested in this work.

    My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
    independent
    from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>.  As

    the minimum, there must be an
    opt-out process.

    I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, make
    people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the

    existence of the list and the ongoing
    discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested
    design
    choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
    technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be
    citations of
    patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.

    Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical ne=
w
    list.

    Stephan


    On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"

    <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:

     >
     > Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
    have advice
     > on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
    talk about
     > patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
    practical point of
     > view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the
    ietf.org <http://ietf.org>  <http://ietf.org>

     > servers or not on ietf servers.


    _______________________________________________
    codec mailing list
    codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec




_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



________________________________
_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

From stewe@stewe.org  Fri Oct 22 09:39:38 2010
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:40:57 -0700
From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@juniper.net>, "'stephen.botzko@gmail.com'" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "'jean-marc.valin@octasic.com'" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Thread-Topic: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
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Hi all,

Sorry for my late and short reply.  I'm currently a bit time pressed.

I reviewed my recent emails to the list (over the last week or so), and
found nothing that made me jump to post a correction.  Which does not mean
that I may not do so in the future...

One key point of Greg's message I wholeheartedly agree to: when in doubt,
consult your own laywer.

As of the rest of Greg's email, I agree with many of Greg's points below,
but also disagree with a few.  However, I'm not prepared to discuss my
points on this public list.  If Greg is willing, we could probably have a
bit of a dialogue between us two (+ whatever advisors we are pulling in),
and, if we were agreeing so, could post a summary at a later date.  Greg,
please let me know if you are interested.

Regards,
Stephan



On 10.20.2010 15:39 , "Gregory Maxwell" <gmaxwell@juniper.net> wrote:

>=20
> Stephan,
>=20
> I think that many of us appreciate your cautionary advice and the benefit=
 of
> your experience. I certainly do.
>=20
> But I think participants also need to be careful to take it only as cauti=
onary
> advice and not the gospel truth. I doubt you want your words to create FU=
D and
> thereby make participants here afraid to act, but I think your use such
> confident and firm language may sometimes have that effect. This risk of
> reasonable caution having the unintended effect of FUD is especially grea=
t
> when your comments are vague.  E.g. I understand why you might advise aga=
inst
> discussing licensing terms in some places=8B due to concerns about creating
> collusion problems=8B  but I can not fathom how an antitrust issues could a=
rise
> when discussing free-to-all licensing. Licensing terms are routinely disc=
ussed
> in the context of free software projects, even with the involvement of bi=
llion
> dollar corporations.  Your comments on the issue of licensing weren't eve=
n
> specific enough for me to ask an attorney if you're right or not.  Respon=
ses
> like that create a cloud of FUD which removes enlightenment rather than
> creating it.
>=20
> Some of the advice you've given here directly contradicts the advice I've
> received from council.  I would encourage people here interested in legal
> issues consult their own council and obtain an analysis specific to their=
 own
> circumstances and needs.
>=20
> In particular, the issue of "willful infringement" seems to frequently su=
ffer
> from substantial misinformation or, really, out of date information. The
> information you've provided here is, to the best of my understanding,
> incorrect.
>=20
> The effective standard for willful infringement applied by US courts chan=
ged a
> few years ago as a result of In re Seagate[1].   After a brief search I f=
ound
> this reasonable looking overview which reflects the current state of the
> world:=20
> http://www.patentbaristas.com/archives/2007/08/24/is-the-tide-of-willful-=
paten
> t-infringement-litigation-receding/ (but there are a great many other wri=
teups
> about this case out there). Things also appear to be stationary on this n=
ew
> precedent (the supreme court declined an appeal of this decision).
>=20
> The exact nuance of what behaviour is sufficiently reckless to constitute
> willful infringement in the context of the In re Seagate decision is stil=
l an
> evolving area. But the old 'you must get a pass from a patent attorney ev=
ery
> time you see a patent number' is simply no longer true. The various news =
and
> journal articles on this case discuss this subject in depth.
>=20
> The increasingly common advice now given to software developers intereste=
d in
> creating non-infringing software is "read the patents", even for people
> without the benefit of the active involvement of a patent attorney. Peopl=
e
> without a lot of background in this area may find this article to be very
> informative: http://news.swpat.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patents/
>=20
> Almost nowhere in law does _intentionally_ blinding yourself because you
> believe that you will likely find something which creates obligations act=
ually
> relieve you of those obligations (go look up "constructive knowledge"), s=
o we
> shouldn't be surprised to find patent law reflecting this greater pattern=
.
>=20
> In particular I should draw your attention to SEB S.A. v. Montgomery Ward=
 &
> Co., Inc.[2]  where the court determined that "deliberate indifference"  =
was
> equivalent to specific intent=8B a requirement for a claim of inducement.
>=20
> The matter is certainly not clear or settled=8B which is why I strongly
> encourage people to consult their own council=8B  but it appears clear that=
 risk
> of awareness of patent claims is being significantly overstated and the
> suggestion that one can get away with intentionally avoiding knowing seem=
s to
> be both legally risky and socially reprehensible.
>=20
> Besides=8B there are plenty of good reasons to not spend time looking at pa=
tent
> claims besides believing that you'll learn about something troublesome:  =
It's
> somewhat difficult and time consuming.    If you believe that participati=
on
> here is so dangerous that you can only do so safely by being wilfully bli=
nd to
> the specifics of risks that you believe you exist, then perhaps you shoul=
d
> reconsider your participation.
>=20
> I want to reiterate that in spite of the above that I'm also not interest=
ed in
> having a public patent discussion here or on another list but I want to m=
ake
> it clear that my lack of interest has nothing to do with an attempt to av=
oid
> knowing about patent risk.  I know risk exists and I want to be made awar=
e of
> existing patents which may pose a risk for the usability or royalty free
> status of the codec. I have been involved in the review of patents for
> implications on the involved codec(s), and there will be more review as t=
he
> work continues. I just don't believe that a public discussion is a produc=
tive
> way to conduct this activity.  And I believe this statement is true for a=
ll
> the technical contributors to our current codec.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
> [1] http://www.fedcir.gov/opinions/M830.pdf
> [2] http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-federal-circuit/1506829.html /
> http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/09-1099.pdf (=
real
> link seems to be down)
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________________
> From: Stephan Wenger [stewe@stewe.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:43 PM
> To: Gregory Maxwell; 'stephen.botzko@gmail.com'; 'jean-marc.valin@octasic=
.com'
> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
> Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
>=20
> For the record: Without being interested in any discussion in this venue,=
 I
> disagree with your statement =B3Being _willfully_ ignorant of your obligati=
ons
> which you would otherwise know about is just willfully infringing in a pr=
etty
> dress.=B2.
>=20
> I support the rest of your email.
> Stephan
>=20
>=20
> On 10.20.2010 10:50 , "Gregory Maxwell" <gmaxwell@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> There is, has been, and will be plenty of discussion in _private_.   Bein=
g
> _willfully_ ignorant of your obligations which you would otherwise know a=
bout
> is just willfully infringing in a pretty dress.
>=20
> The goal of the developers here is to not infringe on third part patents.=
 Full
> stop.
>=20
> The objection is to a public discussion- because patent discussion must b=
e
> informed by the relevant experts, because it no one wants to be dragged i=
n to
> testify on random patents, and because exposing your strategy to a possib=
le
> attacker makes it weaker, etc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
> To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
> Cc: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wed Oct 20 10:42:27 2010
> Subject: Re: [codec] Seperate list for IPR discutions?
> Stephan's suggestion on the boundary  "citations of patent language, incl=
uding
> patent numbers and claim language" is consistent with your boundary.  Det=
ailed
> analysis of proposed work-arounds, would presumably include patent langua=
ge.
> General discussion of license terms would not.
>=20
> Since I wouldn't subscribe or otherwise access the new list, it doesn't m=
atter
> to me if it is publicly archived or not.
>=20
> Based on past IETF experience, it is quite difficult to convince posters =
to go
> off-line for a private discussion.  One practical issue is that the folks=
 who
> do want to discuss this stuff have no easy way to identify themselves.  I=
'm
> thinking that providing the second list might make that easier.  Though
> perhaps no one but Christian is willing to talk about patent claims?
>=20
> Stephen Botzko
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic=
.com>
> wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> Just to make things clear, I think there's two sets of issues regarding I=
PR.
> One is discussing the exact terms of IPR disclosure/licensing and the oth=
er is
> discussion about patent themselves. I think the former should remain on t=
his
> list. OTOH, I think the latter is (unfortunately) best dealt with in priv=
ate.
> I don't think there is anything to be gained in discussing patent claims =
in a
> publicly archived list. I don't think even having that on a separate list=
 is a
> good idea and I'm not interested in participating in such a list should i=
t be
> created.
>=20
>      Jean-Marc
>=20
>=20
> On 10-10-20 01:03 PM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
> +1, I'd like to see it handled precisely this way.
>=20
> I think it provides a good way forward, and allows those of us who do
> not want exposure to patent details to continue to participate on the
> main list.
>=20
> Stephen Botzko
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org
> <mailto:stewe@stewe.org>> wrote:
>=20
>     Hi,
>=20
>     Yes, I think a separate mailing list would be an excellent idea.
>       There is
>     IMO no danger to the IETF when using an IETF-hosted list.  But, as yo=
u
>     mentioned, there are also other options.  Whatever is the easiest
>     for those
>     interested in this work.
>=20
>     My preference would be that this list has a subscription process
>     independent
>     from the subscription to codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>.  As
>=20
>     the minimum, there must be an
>     opt-out process.
>=20
>     I would recommend that the maintainers of the list, periodically, mak=
e
>     people on codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org> aware of the
>=20
>     existence of the list and the ongoing
>     discussions, in a summarized form.  I also don't mind if suggested
>     design
>     choices spill over to codec@ietf; after all, this is the list where
>     technical discussions are being held.  The borderline would be
>     citations of
>     patent language, including patent numbers and claim language.
>=20
>     Personally, I surely do not want to be involved on this hypothetical =
new
>     list.
>=20
>     Stephan
>=20
>=20
>     On 10.20.2010 06:42 , "fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>"
>=20
>     <fluffy@cisco.com <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Stephan, as our WG technical advisor on topics like this, do you
>     have advice
>> on if we should set up a separate list for people that want to
>     talk about
>> patent issues related to the standards from this WG? From a
>     practical point of
>> view, someone could easily set up a separate list either on the
>     ietf.org <http://ietf.org>  <http://ietf.org>
>=20
>> servers or not on ietf servers.
>=20
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>     codec mailing list
>     codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>=20
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



From rchen@broadcom.com  Fri Oct 22 22:11:58 2010
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From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
To: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 22:13:24 -0700
Thread-Topic: A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Subject: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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--_002_CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C75F264FFF8CIRVEXCHCCR01c_
Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All,

In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/postfilt=
ering method to try to=20
improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for certain =
audio signals that CELT=20
low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typically n=
early periodic solo=20
music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has achie=
ved fairly significant=20
audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that I t=
ried.  This is achieved=20
without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in the =
codec complexity and=20
encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if a r=
ange coder is used).

I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him CELT-=
coded audio signals at=20
different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listening,=
 he agreed that the=20
method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CELT i=
mplementation, and he=20
would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to evalua=
te and verify the=20
performance gain and possibly further develop the method. =20

Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a docum=
ent and send the=20
document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, understand=
 it, and then implement=20
it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical description=
 of the method.

Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefiltering/po=
stfiltering method is=20
actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried to de=
scribe the technical=20
details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had it =
without any ambiguity,=20
and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for some of=
 the algorithm=20
components in case we need to go those routes.

Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to finish=
 a very rough first cut=20
for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine or tu=
ne it.  Thus, I am sure=20
there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many area=
s that can be improved=20
upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first cut =
showed a lot of promise=20
as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different bit-=
rates for a trumpet=20
test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems with=
.  Therefore, after=20
this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT and fu=
rther refined/tuned, I=20
think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robust t=
o different audio=20
signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many sig=
nals that are currently=20
difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio quali=
ty level across a wider=20
variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testing, a=
nd further development=20
of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is proposed=
 that this pitch=20
prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IETF O=
pus codec to make the=20
codec more robust to different input signal types.

Cheers,

Raymond

--_002_CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C75F264FFF8CIRVEXCHCCR01c_
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From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Sat Oct 23 05:50:13 2010
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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 08:52:14 -0400
From: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Raymond,

Thank you very much for your contribution and the highly detailed
description you just sent. I believe I have enough information to start
implementing it. At this point, I only have one minor question. When
estimating the pitch period/gain, do you recommend working on the input
signal directly or should the input be "whitened" using a filter like
A(z/gamma) (where A(z) is the LPC filter)?

Thanks again,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-23 01:13 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> All,
> 
> In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method to try to 
> improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for certain audio signals that CELT 
> low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typically nearly periodic solo 
> music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has achieved fairly significant 
> audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that I tried.  This is achieved 
> without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in the codec complexity and 
> encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if a range coder is used).
> 
> I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him CELT-coded audio signals at 
> different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listening, he agreed that the 
> method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CELT implementation, and he 
> would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to evaluate and verify the 
> performance gain and possibly further develop the method.  
> 
> Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a document and send the 
> document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, understand it, and then implement 
> it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical description of the method.
> 
> Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is 
> actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried to describe the technical 
> details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had it without any ambiguity, 
> and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for some of the algorithm 
> components in case we need to go those routes.
> 
> Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to finish a very rough first cut 
> for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine or tune it.  Thus, I am sure 
> there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many areas that can be improved 
> upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first cut showed a lot of promise 
> as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different bit-rates for a trumpet 
> test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems with.  Therefore, after 
> this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT and further refined/tuned, I 
> think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robust to different audio 
> signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many signals that are currently 
> difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio quality level across a wider 
> variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testing, and further development 
> of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is proposed that this pitch 
> prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IETF Opus codec to make the 
> codec more robust to different input signal types.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Raymond
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

From rchen@broadcom.com  Sat Oct 23 12:48:44 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

You are very welcome. Glad to contribute and glad to know that the document=
 is good=20
enough for you to start implementing the techniques.

Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emphas=
is is. =20
If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind havi=
ng a=20
little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with th=
e=20
A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common appr=
oach used=20
in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well aw=
are of),=20
and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a stron=
g first=20
formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.=20

If, on the other hand, your main emphasis is to get a codec complexity as l=
ow as=20
possible, I think it is possible to get a reasonably good pitch period cont=
our by=20
using the input signal directly without partial whitening filtering, thus s=
aving the=20
complexity of the associated LPC analysis and filtering (which can be relat=
ively=20
high for the 48 kHz sampling rate).  Note that when I said "Any low-complex=
ity pitch=20
estimator can be used here..." in the document I sent last night, I used th=
e term=20
"low-complexity" because I thought you told me you tried to keep the comple=
xity of=20
CELT as low as possible.  Since this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering appro=
ach is=20
meant to be used with CELT, I thought it is only natural to make the comple=
xity of=20
the pitch estimator as low as possible. That's why I used the term "low-com=
plexity=20
pitch estimator" in that document.

I think for this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach to work well, wh=
at's most=20
important is that we need to do everything we can to ensure that the pitch =
period we=20
extract is the true pitch period rather than an integer multiple or sub-mul=
tiple of=20
the pitch period.  Unlike speech coding or packet loss concealment applicat=
ions=20
where double pitch period or triple pitch period still gives you decent pit=
ch=20
prediction or replacement waveform, here double or triple pitch period will=
 create=20
one or two unwanted frequency response peak(s) in the valley regions betwee=
n pitch=20
harmonic peaks and thus will greatly reduce the noise reduction achievable =
by the=20
noise spectral shaping effect of the pitch prefilter/postfilter approach. =
=20

Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniques =
to get a=20
smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of th=
e=20
BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can se=
rve as a=20
good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to ha=
ve=20
relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing buil=
t-in to=20
try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions of =
speech. =20
It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 kHz=
 speech=20
and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimize =
it to=20
work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of the p=
itch=20
period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency rang=
e for=20
adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies of =
music=20
instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.  B=
V16 and=20
BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 Hz,=
=20
respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges to=
 be able=20
to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.

Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estimato=
r=20
available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estimator=
 and=20
performs better, I am all for it.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]=20
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:52 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Hi Raymond,

Thank you very much for your contribution and the highly detailed
description you just sent. I believe I have enough information to start
implementing it. At this point, I only have one minor question. When
estimating the pitch period/gain, do you recommend working on the input
signal directly or should the input be "whitened" using a filter like
A(z/gamma) (where A(z) is the LPC filter)?

Thanks again,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-23 01:13 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> All,
>=20
> In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/postfi=
ltering method to try to=20
> improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for certai=
n audio signals that CELT=20
> low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typically=
 nearly periodic solo=20
> music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has ach=
ieved fairly significant=20
> audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that I=
 tried.  This is achieved=20
> without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in th=
e codec complexity and=20
> encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if a=
 range coder is used).
>=20
> I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him CEL=
T-coded audio signals at=20
> different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listenin=
g, he agreed that the=20
> method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CELT=
 implementation, and he=20
> would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to eval=
uate and verify the=20
> performance gain and possibly further develop the method. =20
>=20
> Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a doc=
ument and send the=20
> document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, understa=
nd it, and then implement=20
> it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical descripti=
on of the method.
>=20
> Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefiltering/=
postfiltering method is=20
> actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried to =
describe the technical=20
> details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had i=
t without any ambiguity,=20
> and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for some =
of the algorithm=20
> components in case we need to go those routes.
>=20
> Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to fini=
sh a very rough first cut=20
> for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine or =
tune it.  Thus, I am sure=20
> there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many ar=
eas that can be improved=20
> upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first cu=
t showed a lot of promise=20
> as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different bi=
t-rates for a trumpet=20
> test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems wi=
th.  Therefore, after=20
> this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT and =
further refined/tuned, I=20
> think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robust=
 to different audio=20
> signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many s=
ignals that are currently=20
> difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio qua=
lity level across a wider=20
> variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testing,=
 and further development=20
> of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is propos=
ed that this pitch=20
> prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IETF=
 Opus codec to make the=20
> codec more robust to different input signal types.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Raymond
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



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From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
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Thread-Topic: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

A few more comments about the technical description document I sent last ni=
ght:

(1) I should have clarified: when I said "frame size" in my document, I was
referring to the frame size for pitch estimation and pitch filter tap calcu=
lation,
not the CELT codec frame size.  For ease of implementation, the boundaries =
of the
pitch frames and codec frames should obviously be aligned.  Given that the =
CELT-only
mode of the IETF codec has possible frame sizes of 2.5, 5, 10, and 20 ms, I=
 would
recommend that we update the pitch period and pitch filter tap(s) at a rate=
 of once
every 5 ms if the CELT frame size is 5, 10, or 20 ms, because updating them=
 once
every 10 or 20 ms is probably too infrequent and probably will decrease the=
 system's
effectiveness in the reduction of coding distortion (although it doesn't hu=
rt for
you to try updating them every 10 or 20 ms to be the same as the codec fram=
e size
just to see what happens).  On the other hand, if the CELT frame size is 2.=
5 ms in
order to achieve an ultra-low delay, then it doesn't make sense for the pit=
ch
prefilter/postfilter to use a 5 ms frame size since it will just increase t=
he system
delay.  In this case, even though 2.5 ms pitch frame size may be more frequ=
ent than
necessary and will double the pitch side information bit-rate, it is still =
a
necessity just to enable CELT to achieve the ultra-low delay.

(2) On a second thought, I think to calculate the normalized correlation c =
or the
optimal tap weight beta for a single-tap pitch predictor, rather than calcu=
lating
the summation over the current frame (n from 1 to L), it probably makes mor=
e sense
for the summation length to be the extracted pitch period or the pitch fram=
e size,
whichever is larger. The motivation is this: suppose the pitch frame size i=
s 2.5 ms
or 5 ms and the pitch period is 15 ms, then trying to measure the level of
periodicity using only 1/6 to 1/3 of the pitch cycle waveform seems dangero=
us or at
least unreliable.  Thus, if the detected pitch period is longer than the fr=
ame size,
then we should sum over all of the samples in the current frame plus more s=
amples in
the previous frame(s) until the total number of samples in the summation eq=
uals the
pitch period.  If the pitch period is smaller than the frame size and the p=
itch
frame size is only 2.5 ms or 5 ms, I recommend just summing over the entire=
 current
frame.

(3) If we use multi-tap pitch filters in order to taper off the comb filter=
ing
effect at higher frequencies, we need to be careful about the stability of =
the IIR
pitch filter, especially if the IIR filter is in the decoder side (as is th=
e case in
my example single-tap all-pole pitch postfilter).  I suppose you probably a=
lready
know this, but I would like to mention and discuss it anyway.  Even though =
the
multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter can be an exact inverse filter of a correspo=
nding
pitch prefilter and supposedly is just "undoing" the effect of the pitch pr=
efilter,
the quantization errors in the CELT codec and even the effects caused by ch=
annel
errors can potentially make the output of the multi-tap IIR pitch postfilte=
r "go
wild" (have very large amplitude or even oscillate) if that filter is unsta=
ble or
even if it is only close to unstable (i.e. all poles are inside the unit ci=
rcle but
too close to the unit circle).  If the IIR pitch filter is a one-tap filter=
,
ensuring the stability is trivial.  If it is a 2-tap or 3-tap filter, Profe=
ssor
Peter Kabal and his student Ravi Ramachandran has a nice paper on a stabili=
ty test
and a stabilization technique that can be used to ensure the stability of s=
uch a
filter.  Their paper is published in the IEEE Transactions on ASSP, July 19=
87.  We
can use that stabilization technique to stabilize every single candidate 2-=
tap or 3-
tap filter coefficient set that we will transmit and use, with enough safet=
y margin
to instability, to ensure that a 2-tap or 3-tap IIR pitch postfilter will n=
ot
amplify the output audio signal wildly.

Alternatively, we can use the second form of the pitch prefilter and postfi=
lter that
I mentioned in my document so that the pitch postfilter is a 2-tap or 3-tap=
 FIR
filter in the form of H(z) =3D 1 + a1 * z^(-p+1) + a2 * z^-p + a3 * z^(-p-1=
), with a1
or a3 equals to zero in the case of a 2-tap filter.  In this case, we will =
move the
multi-tap IIR filter from the decoder side to the encoder side where it is =
applied
directly to the input audio signal and thus we do not have to worry about C=
ELT
quantization errors or channel errors driving a "nearly unstable" filter wi=
ld.  Of
course, we do not want the IIR prefilter there to be too close to instabili=
ty,
either, otherwise the potential wild swing in its output may still cause pr=
oblems
for the CELT codec.  The main advantage of this alternative arrangement is =
that the
pitch postfilter is now an FIR filter, which is guaranteed to be stable and=
 no
amount of CELT coding distortion or channel error will ever "drive it crazy=
 and
wild" like they can for a multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter that has not been
stabilized or has not maintained a sufficient safety margin to instability.=
  The
main disadvantage of this arrangement is that with an FIR pitch postfilter,=
 its
frequency response has downward spikes located at pitch harmonics, and it w=
ill tend
to shape the coding noise that way, too.  A noise spectral shape with downw=
ard
spikes is probably not as ideal as the noise spectral shape with upward spi=
kes that
the all-pole pitch postfilter provides.  This is more so when the parameter=
 bmax is
closer to 1 but probably won't be too big a deal if bmax is in the neighbor=
hood of
0.4 to 0.6.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
aymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:50 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin
Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec
Importance: Low

Hi Jean-Marc,

You are very welcome. Glad to contribute and glad to know that the document=
 is good
enough for you to start implementing the techniques.

Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emphas=
is is.
If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind havi=
ng a
little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with th=
e
A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common appr=
oach used
in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well aw=
are of),
and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a stron=
g first
formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.

If, on the other hand, your main emphasis is to get a codec complexity as l=
ow as
possible, I think it is possible to get a reasonably good pitch period cont=
our by
using the input signal directly without partial whitening filtering, thus s=
aving the
complexity of the associated LPC analysis and filtering (which can be relat=
ively
high for the 48 kHz sampling rate).  Note that when I said "Any low-complex=
ity pitch
estimator can be used here..." in the document I sent last night, I used th=
e term
"low-complexity" because I thought you told me you tried to keep the comple=
xity of
CELT as low as possible.  Since this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering appro=
ach is
meant to be used with CELT, I thought it is only natural to make the comple=
xity of
the pitch estimator as low as possible. That's why I used the term "low-com=
plexity
pitch estimator" in that document.

I think for this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach to work well, wh=
at's most
important is that we need to do everything we can to ensure that the pitch =
period we
extract is the true pitch period rather than an integer multiple or sub-mul=
tiple of
the pitch period.  Unlike speech coding or packet loss concealment applicat=
ions
where double pitch period or triple pitch period still gives you decent pit=
ch
prediction or replacement waveform, here double or triple pitch period will=
 create
one or two unwanted frequency response peak(s) in the valley regions betwee=
n pitch
harmonic peaks and thus will greatly reduce the noise reduction achievable =
by the
noise spectral shaping effect of the pitch prefilter/postfilter approach.

Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniques =
to get a
smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of th=
e
BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can se=
rve as a
good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to ha=
ve
relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing buil=
t-in to
try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions of =
speech.
It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 kHz=
 speech
and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimize =
it to
work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of the p=
itch
period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency rang=
e for
adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies of =
music
instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.  B=
V16 and
BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 Hz,
respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges to=
 be able
to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.

Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estimato=
r
available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estimator=
 and
performs better, I am all for it.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:52 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Hi Raymond,

Thank you very much for your contribution and the highly detailed
description you just sent. I believe I have enough information to start
implementing it. At this point, I only have one minor question. When
estimating the pitch period/gain, do you recommend working on the input
signal directly or should the input be "whitened" using a filter like
A(z/gamma) (where A(z) is the LPC filter)?

Thanks again,

        Jean-Marc

On 10-10-23 01:13 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> All,
>
> In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/postfi=
ltering method to try to
> improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for certai=
n audio signals that CELT
> low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typically=
 nearly periodic solo
> music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has ach=
ieved fairly significant
> audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that I=
 tried.  This is achieved
> without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in th=
e codec complexity and
> encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if a=
 range coder is used).
>
> I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him CEL=
T-coded audio signals at
> different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listenin=
g, he agreed that the
> method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CELT=
 implementation, and he
> would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to eval=
uate and verify the
> performance gain and possibly further develop the method.
>
> Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a doc=
ument and send the
> document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, understa=
nd it, and then implement
> it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical descripti=
on of the method.
>
> Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefiltering/=
postfiltering method is
> actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried to =
describe the technical
> details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had i=
t without any ambiguity,
> and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for some =
of the algorithm
> components in case we need to go those routes.
>
> Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to fini=
sh a very rough first cut
> for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine or =
tune it.  Thus, I am sure
> there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many ar=
eas that can be improved
> upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first cu=
t showed a lot of promise
> as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different bi=
t-rates for a trumpet
> test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems wi=
th.  Therefore, after
> this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT and =
further refined/tuned, I
> think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robust=
 to different audio
> signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many s=
ignals that are currently
> difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio qua=
lity level across a wider
> variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testing,=
 and further development
> of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is propos=
ed that this pitch
> prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IETF=
 Opus codec to make the
> codec more robust to different input signal types.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Raymond
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Sat Oct 23 17:33:13 2010
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Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-23 03:50 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emphasis is.  
> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind having a 
> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with the 
> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common approach used 
> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well aware of), 
> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a strong first 
> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency. 

My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that a
non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb filter
to be turned on with a high gain.

> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniques to get a 
> smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of the 
> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can serve as a 
> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to have 
> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing built-in to 
> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions of speech.  

CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's very
good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too. It's
part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume that
Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD license
(it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the current CELT
estimator.

> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 kHz speech 
> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimize it to 
> work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of the pitch 
> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency range for 
> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies of music 
> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.  BV16 and 
> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 Hz, 
> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges to be able 
> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.

The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but my
intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100 Hz
because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between the
harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a post-filter.
Again worth testing.

> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estimator 
> available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estimator and 
> performs better, I am all for it.

There's a few more starting with the SILK one, but it may be too
good/complex for what we need. The Speex one is fairly complex and not
that good, so it's not interesting for this. There's also the codec2
low-bitrate vocoder, but I don't know how well its pitch estimator is.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Sat Oct 23 18:04:24 2010
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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 21:06:27 -0400
From: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-23 05:56 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> (2) On a second thought, I think to calculate the normalized correlation c or the
> optimal tap weight beta for a single-tap pitch predictor, rather than calculating
> the summation over the current frame (n from 1 to L), it probably makes more sense
> for the summation length to be the extracted pitch period or the pitch frame size,
> whichever is larger. The motivation is this: suppose the pitch frame size is 2.5 ms
> or 5 ms and the pitch period is 15 ms, then trying to measure the level of
> periodicity using only 1/6 to 1/3 of the pitch cycle waveform seems dangerous or at
> least unreliable.  Thus, if the detected pitch period is longer than the frame size,
> then we should sum over all of the samples in the current frame plus more samples in
> the previous frame(s) until the total number of samples in the summation equals the
> pitch period.  If the pitch period is smaller than the frame size and the pitch
> frame size is only 2.5 ms or 5 ms, I recommend just summing over the entire current
> frame.

That's indeed an issue that I hadn't thought of. It makes sense that we
want at least one period.

> (3) If we use multi-tap pitch filters in order to taper off the comb filtering
> effect at higher frequencies, we need to be careful about the stability of the IIR
> pitch filter, especially if the IIR filter is in the decoder side (as is the case in
> my example single-tap all-pole pitch postfilter).  I suppose you probably already
> know this, but I would like to mention and discuss it anyway. 

Indeed, I learned this the hard way with Speex in the past. Fortunately,
the gains we need tend to be small and we probably only want positive
gains. As far as I know, having a sum of the absolute values of the taps
being smaller than 1 is a sufficient condition to ensure stability and
it's probably good enough even if stricter than necessary.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

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Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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>>>>> "JV" == Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> writes:

JV> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has
JV> pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is
JV> accepted as an IETF standard.

As a Standard?  Or just published as an standards-track RFC?

That is a /huge/ difference, time-wise.

-JimC
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To: "'Koen Vos'" <koen.vos@skype.net>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi Koen,

=20

Comments inline=E2=80=A6

=20

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=20

From: Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:31 PM
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: Stephan Wenger; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing

=20

Sorry, please ignore previous email - bad keyboard shortcut...

>> Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does =
not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.

If you modify the codec so much that it's no longer compatible to the =
standard, then that modified codec is no longer "Opus".  In that case =
you've created a new codec and I think it's only reasonable that the =
patent license doesn't apply.

[Christian Hoene] Any good codec such as G.729, AMR,  and GSM had =
successors. Even a potentially great codec such as Opus can be enhanced =
- for example - by supporting multi channel compression or spatial =
audio. Also, the first version of the codec might come with bugs, =
weaknesses, or high third-party IPR licensing claims that might require =
updates of the standard.

=20

Thus, in my opinion it is reasonable to allow standardizing a follow-up =
codec, which may need a changed bit-stream and thus cannot be backwards =
compatible.

=20

Of course, this issue is not time pressing.=20

=20

With best regards,

=20

 Christian Hoene

=20



best,
koen.



  _____ =20

From: "Koen Vos" <koen.vos@skype.net>
To: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:27:39 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing

If you modify the codec so much that it can't=20



  _____ =20

From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing




Hi

=20

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Stephan Wenger
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing

=20

Hi,
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to =
circumscribe=E2=80=94or worse: abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms =
provided by a rightholder.  Skype=E2=80=99s licensing declaration can be =
found at https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297.  I note that the =
statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of their technology =
into an IETF standard.
Stephan

[Christian Hoene] +1

=20

It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior =
standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration, =
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a =
license from Skype.

=20

Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the =
original standard anymore, will require a license.

=20

Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not =
confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.

=20

Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer =
again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a =
draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not =
require any new license anymore.

=20

It is patent really essential for the opus codec?=20

=E2=80=9CA method of estimating noise in data containing voice =
information and noise includes receiving the data as a sequence of input =
values; transforming the data by applying a first non linear mapping to =
the input values wherein the derivative function of the mapping =
decreases in magnitude as the input values increase in magnitude =
smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed =
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is =
opposite to the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of =
the noise in the inputted data.=E2=80=9D

Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any =
ideas?=20

=20

Christian

=20

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=20




On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com> =
wrote:

Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has =
pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted =
as an IETF standard.

    Jean-Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing

Hello,

we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.

We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.

-Pascal

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

  _____ =20

_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


_______________________________________________
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codec@ietf.org
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
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-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
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2970532 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

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color:#993366'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Koen Vos
[mailto:koen.vos@skype.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Hoene<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stephan Wenger; codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Sorry,
please ignore previous email - bad keyboard shortcut...<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&gt;&gt; Furthermore, any implementation of the codec =
that
accidentally does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license =
fee.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><br>
<br>
If you modify the codec so much that it's no longer compatible to the =
standard,
then that modified codec is no longer &quot;Opus&quot;.&nbsp; In that =
case
you've created a new codec and I think it's only reasonable that the =
patent
license doesn't apply.</span><span =
style=3D'color:#993366'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'>[Christian Hoene] =
</span></i></b><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'>Any good codec such as G.729, AMR,=C2=A0 and GSM had =
successors. Even
a potentially great codec such as Opus can be enhanced - for example - =
by supporting
multi channel compression or spatial audio. Also, the first version of =
the
codec might come with bugs, weaknesses, or high third-party IPR =
licensing claims
that might require updates of the standard.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'>Thus, in my opinion it is reasonable to allow =
standardizing a follow-up
codec, which may need a changed bit-stream and thus cannot be backwards
compatible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'>Of course, this issue is not time pressing. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'>With best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#993366'>=C2=A0Christian Hoene<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><br>
<br>
best,<br>
koen.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'color:black'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'color:black'>From:
</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'>&quot;Koen Vos&quot; =
&lt;koen.vos@skype.net&gt;<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Christian Hoene&quot; =
&lt;hoene@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Stephan Wenger&quot; &lt;stewe@stewe.org&gt;, =
codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:27:39 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>If
you modify the codec so much that it can't <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'color:black'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span
style=3D'color:black'>&quot;Christian Hoene&quot; =
&lt;hoene@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Stephan Wenger&quot; &lt;stewe@stewe.org&gt;, =
codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] =
<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Stephan Wenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hi,<br>
With =E2=80=9Chat=E2=80=9D:<br>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to =
circumscribe=E2=80=94or worse:
abbreviate=E2=80=94licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =
&nbsp;Skype=E2=80=99s licensing
declaration can be found at <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297"
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>. &nbsp;I =
note that
the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of their =
technology
into an IETF standard.<br>
Stephan</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Christian Hoene] =
</span></i></b><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>+1</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to =
users
prior standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing =
declaration,
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a =
license
from Skype.</span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not =
conform to the
original standard anymore, will require a license.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that =
accidentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license =
fee.</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk =
to
your lawyer again to weaken this license statements. This shall include =
at
least a draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard =
shall not
require any new license anymore.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is patent really essential for the opus codec? =
</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>=E2=80=9C</span><span class=3Dapple-style-span><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333'>=
A method
of estimating noise in data containing voice information and noise =
includes
receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data =
by
applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the =
derivative
function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values =
increase in
magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is =
opposite to
the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in =
the
inputted data.=E2=80=9D</span></span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the =
patent.
Any ideas? </span><span style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Christian</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=BCbingen </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 =
2970532 </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span></i></b><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;</span><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><a
href=3D"jean-marc.valin@octasic.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
lang=3DEN-US>jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</span></a></span><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>&gt; wrote:</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Opus is available under =
the BSD
license. As for patents, Skype has pledged to make them available =
royalty-free
once the codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"codec-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
on behalf of Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard =
about<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these =
codecs.<br>
<br>
We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license =
as<br>
speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software =
and<br>
we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as =
Opus<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using =
it.<br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span><=
span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>

<hr size=3D3 width=3D"95%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span><=
span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
codec@ietf.org<br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know all of you have been very concerned about the Skype IPR, but I don't
think this is the biggest problem. In this group we are currently missing a
lot of traditional CODEC industry players (GIPS (now google), Qualcomm,
Nokia, etc). We never checked that we are not using any of their
intellectual property. If we are serious about creating a royalty free
CODEC, someone (I am not implying doing this on the mailing list, since thi=
s
probably is ideally done offline), needs to review Opus, as well as Silk an=
d
CELT, and see if uses any of the third party intellectual property. Good
place to start would be to see if none of the G.729, GSM, AMR, and MP3
patents apply to this code. A wide general purpose patent search is probabl=
y
appropriate as well. We can pretend that none of this intellectual property
exists, but we might end up with having royalty associated with a new CODEC
after all the effort that was invested into creating it. I understand that
we cannot possibly protect ourselves against everything, but we should at
least check the most obvious potential intellectual property.

What this comes down to is that we need to do a patent search and CODEC IPR
review. This is something that will cost a considerable amount of money. I
am not sure what is the best way to approach this. We can either find a
volunteer, familiar with CODEC development and patent law, or setup some
type of fund and hire a company to do this.
_____________________________
Roman Shpount - www.telurix.com


2010/10/25 Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>

>  Hi Koen,
>
>
>
> Comments inline=85
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
>
> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
>
>
> *From:* Koen Vos [mailto:koen.vos@skype.net]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:31 PM
> *To:* Christian Hoene
> *Cc:* Stephan Wenger; codec@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
>
>
> Sorry, please ignore previous email - bad keyboard shortcut...
>
> >> Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does no=
t
> confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.
>
> If you modify the codec so much that it's no longer compatible to the
> standard, then that modified codec is no longer "Opus".  In that case you=
've
> created a new codec and I think it's only reasonable that the patent lice=
nse
> doesn't apply.
>
> *[Christian Hoene] *Any good codec such as G.729, AMR,  and GSM had
> successors. Even a potentially great codec such as Opus can be enhanced -
> for example - by supporting multi channel compression or spatial audio.
> Also, the first version of the codec might come with bugs, weaknesses, or
> high third-party IPR licensing claims that might require updates of the
> standard.
>
>
>
> Thus, in my opinion it is reasonable to allow standardizing a follow-up
> codec, which may need a changed bit-stream and thus cannot be backwards
> compatible.
>
>
>
> Of course, this issue is not time pressing.
>
>
>
> With best regards,
>
>
>
>  Christian Hoene
>
> * *
>
>
>
> best,
> koen.
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Koen Vos" <koen.vos@skype.net>
> *To: *"Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
> *Cc: *"Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:27:39 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
> If you modify the codec so much that it can't
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
> *To: *"Stephan Wenger" <stewe@stewe.org>, codec@ietf.org
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
>
>  Hi
>
>
>
> *From:* codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Stephan Wenger
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM
> *To:* Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; codec@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
>
>
> Hi,
> With =93hat=94:
> It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=97or
> worse: abbreviate=97licensing terms provided by a rightholder.  Skype=92s
> licensing declaration can be found at
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297.  I note that the statement contain=
s
> conditions beyond the acceptance of their technology into an IETF standar=
d.
> Stephan
>
> *[Christian Hoene] *+1
>
>
>
> It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to users prior
> standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declaration,
> this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a
> license from Skype.
>
>
>
> Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not conform to the origina=
l
> standard anymore, will require a license.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that accidentally does not
> confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.
>
>
>
> Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, talk to your lawyer
> again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at least a dr=
aft
> versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall not require
> any new license anymore.
>
>
>
> It is patent really essential for the opus codec?
>
> =93A method of estimating noise in data containing voice information and
> noise includes receiving the data as a sequence of input values;
> transforming the data by applying a first non linear mapping to the input
> values wherein the derivative function of the mapping decreases in magnit=
ude
> as the input values increase in magnitude smoothing the transformed data;
> and transforming the smoothed transformed data by applying a second non
> linear mapping that is opposite to the first non linear mapping, to
> determine an estimate of the noise in the inputted data.=94
>
> Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent the patent. Any idea=
s?
>
>
>
>
> Christian
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
>
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
>
> Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
>
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
> * *
>
>
>
>
> On 10.18.2010 19:26 , "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
> wrote:
>
> Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has pledge=
d
> to make them available royalty-free once the codec is accepted as an IETF
> standard.
>
>     Jean-Marc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Pascal Pochol
> Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing
>
> Hello,
>
> we've been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard abo=
ut
> Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.
>
> We're wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license a=
s
> speex and celt? SILK's license forbid its use in commercial software and
> we're worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus
> handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we'll be using it=
.
>
> -Pascal
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>

--20cf303e9de82d39f004937598b2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know all of you have been very concerned about the Skype IPR, but I don&#=
39;t think this is the biggest problem. In this group we are currently miss=
ing a lot of traditional CODEC industry players (GIPS (now google), Qualcom=
m, Nokia, etc). We never checked that we are not using any of their intelle=
ctual property. If we are serious about creating a royalty free CODEC, some=
one (I am not implying doing this on the mailing list, since this probably =
is ideally done offline), needs to review Opus, as well as Silk and CELT, a=
nd see if uses any of the third party intellectual property. Good place to =
start would be to see if none of the G.729, GSM, AMR, and MP3 patents apply=
 to this code. A wide general purpose patent search is probably appropriate=
 as well. We can pretend that none of this intellectual property exists, bu=
t we might end up with having royalty associated with a new CODEC after all=
 the effort that was invested into creating it. I understand that we cannot=
 possibly protect ourselves against everything, but we should at least chec=
k the most obvious potential intellectual property.<br>
<br>What this comes down to is that we need to do a patent search and CODEC=
 IPR review. This is something that will cost a considerable amount of mone=
y. I am not sure what is the best way to approach this. We can either find =
a volunteer, familiar with CODEC development and patent law, or setup some =
type of fund and hire a company to do this. <br clear=3D"all">
_____________________________<br>Roman Shpount - <a href=3D"http://www.telu=
rix.com">www.telurix.com</a><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/10/25 Christian Hoene <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hoene@uni-tuebingen.de">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</=
a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt=
 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">











<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"DE">

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);">Hi Koen,</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Comments inline=85</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US">----------------------------=
-----------------------------------</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</sp=
an></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sy=
stems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, G=
ermany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.un=
i-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></sp=
an></p>


</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none non=
e; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color=
; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;"> Koen Vos
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:koen.vos@skype.net" target=3D"_blank">koen.vos@sk=
ype.net</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Hoene<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stephan Wenger; <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"color:=
 black;">Sorry,
please ignore previous email - bad keyboard shortcut...<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN=
-US">&gt;&gt; Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that
accidentally does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fe=
e.</span><span style=3D"color: black;"><br>
<br>
If you modify the codec so much that it&#39;s no longer compatible to the s=
tandard,
then that modified codec is no longer &quot;Opus&quot;.=A0 In that case
you&#39;ve created a new codec and I think it&#39;s only reasonable that th=
e patent
license doesn&#39;t apply.</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">=
</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153=
, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US">[Christian Hoene] </span></i></b><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Any good codec =
such as G.729, AMR,=A0 and GSM had successors. Even
a potentially great codec such as Opus can be enhanced - for example - by s=
upporting
multi channel compression or spatial audio. Also, the first version of the
codec might come with bugs, weaknesses, or high third-party IPR licensing c=
laims
that might require updates of the standard.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Thus, in my opinion it is reasonable to allow standar=
dizing a follow-up
codec, which may need a changed bit-stream and thus cannot be backwards
compatible.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">Of course, this issue is not time pressing. </span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">With best regards,</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, =
102);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0Christian Hoene</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(153, 51, 102);">=A0</span></i></b></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"color:=
 black;"><br>
<br>
best,<br>
koen.<br>
<br>
</span></p>

<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;" align=3D"center"><sp=
an style=3D"color: black;">

<hr width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" size=3D"2">

</span></div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style=3D"col=
or: black;">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color: black;">&quot;Koen Vos&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:koen.vos@skype.net" target=3D"_blank">koen.vos@skype.net</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Christian Hoene&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hoene@uni-tueb=
ingen.de" target=3D"_blank">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Stephan Wenger&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org=
" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:27:39 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span></p>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"color:=
 black;">If
you modify the codec so much that it can&#39;t <br>
<br>
</span></p>

<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;" align=3D"center"><sp=
an style=3D"color: black;">

<hr width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" size=3D"2">

</span></div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color: black;">From: </span></b><s=
pan style=3D"color: black;">&quot;Christian Hoene&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:hoene@uni-tuebingen.de" target=3D"_blank">hoene@uni-tuebingen.de</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Stephan Wenger&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org=
" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:12:48 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Hi</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none non=
e; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black;">Fr=
om:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black;"> <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> [=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Stephan Wenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 5:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jean-Marc Valin; Pochol@WebfootGames.com; <a href=3D"mailto:code=
c@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing</span><span style=3D"color=
: black;"></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black;">=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; color: black;">Hi,<br>
With =93hat=94:<br>
It is, in almost all cases, unwise for a third party to circumscribe=97or w=
orse:
abbreviate=97licensing terms provided by a rightholder. =A0Skype=92s licens=
ing
declaration can be found at <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/129=
7" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1297</a>. =A0I note t=
hat
the statement contains conditions beyond the acceptance of their technology
into an IETF standard.<br>
Stephan</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31,=
 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">[Christian Hoene] </span></i></b><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">+1</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: black;"></span></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">It is planned to test the new codec by spreading it to=
 users
prior standardization. However, under the terms of this licensing declarati=
on,
this is not possible for anybody but Skype because it would require a licen=
se
from Skype.</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Also, any enhancement of the codec, which does not con=
form to the
original standard anymore, will require a license.</span><span style=3D"col=
or: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Furthermore, any implementation of the codec that acci=
dentally
does not confirm to the standard yet will require a license fee.</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Clearly, these terms are unacceptable. Please, Koen, t=
alk to
your lawyer again to weaken this license statements. This shall include at
least a draft versions of the standard. Also, updates of the standard shall=
 not
require any new license anymore.</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">It is patent really essential for the opus codec? </sp=
an><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=93</span><span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51);" lang=3D"EN-US">A method
of estimating noise in data containing voice information and noise includes
receiving the data as a sequence of input values; transforming the data by
applying a first non linear mapping to the input values wherein the derivat=
ive
function of the mapping decreases in magnitude as the input values increase=
 in
magnitude smoothing the transformed data; and transforming the smoothed
transformed data by applying a second non linear mapping that is opposite t=
o
the first non linear mapping, to determine an estimate of the noise in the
inputted data.=94</span></span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Anyhow, it should not be too difficult to circumvent t=
he patent.
Any ideas? </span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">Christian</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span><=
/p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 1=
25);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------=
----------------------------------</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></sp=
an></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</spa=
n><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sys=
tems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen </span><span style=3D"color: black;"><=
/span></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Ge=
rmany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span><=
/p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni=
-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></spa=
n><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><i><span style=3D"=
font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">=A0</span></i></b=
><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; color: black;" lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.18.2010 19:26 , &quot;Jean-Marc Valin&quot; &lt;</span><span style=3D=
"font-size: 11pt; color: black;"><a href=3D"http://jean-marc.valin@octasic.=
com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</sp=
an></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black;" lang=3D"EN-US"=
>&gt; wrote:</span><span style=3D"color: black;"></span></p>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 11pt; color: black;">Opus is available under the BSD
license. As for patents, Skype has pledged to make them available royalty-f=
ree
once the codec is accepted as an IETF standard.<br>
<br>
=A0=A0=A0=A0Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href=3D"http://codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a>
on behalf of Pascal Pochol<br>
Sent: Mon 10/18/2010 10:19 PM<br>
To: <a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><=
br>
Subject: [codec] Opus codec licensing<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
we&#39;ve been using speex and celt for voice and music but today I heard a=
bout<br>
Opus which sounds like a fantastic replacement for both these codecs.<br>
<br>
We&#39;re wondering if Opus will be released under the same type of license=
 as<br>
speex and celt? SILK&#39;s license forbid its use in commercial software an=
d<br>
we&#39;re worried that it might carry over to Opus. If not, as soon as Opus=
<br>
handles lower bitrates, stereo and fixed point decoding we&#39;ll be using =
it.<br>
<br>
-Pascal<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span><span style=3D"color: =
black;"></span></p>

<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;" align=3D"center"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: black;">

<hr width=3D"95%" align=3D"center" size=3D"3">

</span></div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Consola=
s; color: black;">_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span><span style=3D"color: =
black;"></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: black;"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></span></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--20cf303e9de82d39f004937598b2--

From bmschwar@fas.harvard.edu  Mon Oct 25 12:25:04 2010
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:26:47 -0400
From: "Benjamin M. Schwartz" <bmschwar@fas.harvard.edu>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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On 10/25/2010 02:59 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:
> I understand that we cannot possibly protect
> ourselves against everything, but we should at least check the most
> obvious potential intellectual property.

Work of this nature has been going on throughout codec development, and
will continue.  It may even accelerate.  The codec's structures have been=

carefully chosen based on knowledge of existing patents, to ensure that
the result is entirely non-infringing.  You (and everyone here) are
welcome to participate in this process, which of course is not taking
place in a public forum.  Contact any of the active developers with your
questions if you would like to contribute to the effort.  Your
contribution would be appreciated.

> What this comes down to is that we need to do a patent search and CODEC=

> IPR review.

Yes.  People have been doing this, and will continue to do this.

> This is something that will cost a considerable amount of
> money.

I don't see why this should be true.  Reading patents is free.  Even
getting file wrappers is not expensive.  The only thing that would be
expensive is hiring certified legal professionals.  In my view, any
possible advantage to hiring lawyers is eliminated by the fact that they
would be unwilling to publish a report with any level of detail beyond
"the codec is non-infringing according to our research".

I don't think that hiring legal professionals would bring any great
advantage regarding IPR review for the codec.  If anything, it is easier
for a codec engineer to learn to read patents than for legal experts to
learn signal processing algorithms.

--Ben


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From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Mon Oct 25 12:28:53 2010
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Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
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Hi Christian,

Haven't had time to go through everything, but I was able to make some of 
the changes before the submission deadline (see draft -08). One issue I 
have found with your suggestion is the use of may vs should and MUST. Note 
that this is an informational draft and as far as I understand -- someone 
please correct me if I'm wrong -- the strict meaning of MAY/SHOULD/MUST as 
defined in RFC2119 does not apply. So in practice, it doesn't make much 
difference whether we use may or should, and we can't use the capitalized 
MUST at all.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-18 06:23 PM, Christian Hoene wrote:
> Hi,
>
> just a few comments from regarding the guidelines draft (see attachment). I made some minor improvements to increase the clarity.
>
> I would suggest to split Section 4 into two. One section on how to describe the codec and its source code and a second on suggestion what to specify and what not to specify.
>
> Also, I added a section on how to collaborate with other WGs and on what topics the collaboration shall take place. It might be useful to plan when go for a bar Bof with those guys...
>
> With best regards,
>
>   Christian
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
> Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of TÃ¼bingen
> Sand 13, 72076 TÃ¼bingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
> http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Valin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:09 AM
> To: codec@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [codec] I-D Action:draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
>
> There's also an updated version of the guidelines draft.
>
> Cheers,
>
> 	Jean-Marc
>
> On 10-10-12 06:45 PM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the Internet Wideband Audio Codec Working Group of the IETF.
>>
>>
>> 	Title           : Codec Requirements
>> 	Author(s)       : J. Valin, K. Vos
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
>> 	Pages           : 21
>> 	Date            : 2010-10-12
>>
>> This document provides specific requirements for an Internet audio
>> codec.  These requirements address quality, sampling rate, bit-rate,
>> and packet loss robustness, as well as other desirable properties.
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-codec-requirements-02.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> Internet-Draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT	codec
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Hi,

I have checked in an initial implementation in the CELT exp_comb_filter 
branch. Right now the quality is very bad, but that's mainly an 
implementation problem. For example, the current pitch estimator I'm using 
has atrocious behaviour when it comes to pitch doubling/tripling/... Also, 
I'm still suspecting bugs in the filter's overlap handling.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-23 08:35 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
> Hi Raymond,
>
> On 10-10-23 03:50 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emphasis is.
>> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind having a
>> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with the
>> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common approach used
>> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well aware of),
>> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a strong first
>> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
>
> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that a
> non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb filter
> to be turned on with a high gain.
>
>> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniques to get a
>> smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of the
>> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can serve as a
>> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to have
>> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing built-in to
>> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions of speech.
>
> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's very
> good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too. It's
> part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume that
> Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD license
> (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the current CELT
> estimator.
>
>> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 kHz speech
>> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimize it to
>> work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of the pitch
>> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency range for
>> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies of music
>> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.  BV16 and
>> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 Hz,
>> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges to be able
>> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
>
> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but my
> intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100 Hz
> because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between the
> harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a post-filter.
> Again worth testing.
>
>> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estimator
>> available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estimator and
>> performs better, I am all for it.
>
> There's a few more starting with the SILK one, but it may be too
> good/complex for what we need. The Speex one is fairly complex and not
> that good, so it's not interesting for this. There's also the codec2
> low-bitrate vocoder, but I don't know how well its pitch estimator is.
>
> Cheers,
>
> 	Jean-Marc
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From koen.vos@skype.net  Mon Oct 25 13:52:10 2010
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 22:53:52 +0200 (CEST)
From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1	CELT	codec
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Hi,

It may be a good idea to look at SILK's pitch estimator.  Having duplicate pitch analysis within one codec is not ideal, and the one in SILK is quite mature/stable.  It may need some changes to work with all of CELT's frame sizes, but it already works for 10 and 20 ms frames - good enough for testing.  As an extra benefit, it efficiently codes the pitch evolution over time, which would benefit CELT too.

koen.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 12:31:40 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec

Hi,

I have checked in an initial implementation in the CELT exp_comb_filter
branch. Right now the quality is very bad, but that's mainly an
implementation problem. For example, the current pitch estimator I'm
using has atrocious behaviour when it comes to pitch
doubling/tripling/... Also,
I'm still suspecting bugs in the filter's overlap handling.

Cheers,

Jean-Marc

On 10-10-23 08:35 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
> Hi Raymond,
>
> On 10-10-23 03:50 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main
>> emphasis is.
>> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't
>> mind having a
>> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal
>> with the
>> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a
>> common approach used
>> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are
>> well aware of),
>> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a
>> strong first
>> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
>
> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that
> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>
>> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing
>> techniques to get a
>> smooth contour of the true pitch period. I think the pitch estimator
>> of the
>> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted
>> can serve as a
>> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized
>> to have
>> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and
>> smoothing built-in to
>> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced
>> regions of speech.
>
> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too.
> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume
> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
> current CELT
> estimator.
>
>> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for
>> 48 kHz speech
>> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and
>> re-optimize it to
>> work better for music as well. We also need to increase the range of
>> the pitch
>> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency. Typical pitch frequency
>> range for
>> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch
>> frequencies of music
>> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or
>> higher. BV16 and
>> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~
>> 1600 Hz,
>> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch
>> ranges to be able
>> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
>
> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but my
> intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100 Hz
> because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between
> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>
>> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch
>> estimator available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32
>> pitch estimator and
>> performs better, I am all for it.
>
> There's a few more starting with the SILK one, but it may be too
> good/complex for what we need. The Speex one is fairly complex and not
> that good, so it's not interesting for this. There's also the codec2
> low-bitrate vocoder, but I don't know how well its pitch estimator is.
>
> Cheers,
>
> 	Jean-Marc
> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

_______________________________________________ codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Mon Oct 25 14:27:37 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode	1	CELT	codec
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Hi Koen,

Yes, using SILK's estimator is definitely a possibility. My only concern
was that it may be a bit too complex for what we need. Think you'd be
able to add a "low complexity" option to it? Otherwise, the options are
to improve the existing CELT pitch estimator (it's small, fast, just not
very good), or adapt either the estimator from either Broadvoice or the
codec2. I haven't experimented enough to have any preference over any of
these 4 options.

One other question about SILK's pitch predictor. How hard does it work
to prevent pitch doubling (at the expense of finding a slightly poorer
correlation). What I observed (that Raymond had already warned about) is
that pitch doubling is really a problem for the postfilter.

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-25 04:53 PM, Koen Vos wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It may be a good idea to look at SILK's pitch estimator.  Having duplicate pitch analysis within one codec is not ideal, and the one in SILK is quite mature/stable.  It may need some changes to work with all of CELT's frame sizes, but it already works for 10 and 20 ms frames - good enough for testing.  As an extra benefit, it efficiently codes the pitch evolution over time, which would benefit CELT too.
> 
> koen.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
> To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
> Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 12:31:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have checked in an initial implementation in the CELT exp_comb_filter
> branch. Right now the quality is very bad, but that's mainly an
> implementation problem. For example, the current pitch estimator I'm
> using has atrocious behaviour when it comes to pitch
> doubling/tripling/... Also,
> I'm still suspecting bugs in the filter's overlap handling.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jean-Marc
> 
> On 10-10-23 08:35 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>> Hi Raymond,
>>
>> On 10-10-23 03:50 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>>> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main
>>> emphasis is.
>>> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't
>>> mind having a
>>> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal
>>> with the
>>> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a
>>> common approach used
>>> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are
>>> well aware of),
>>> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a
>>> strong first
>>> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
>>
>> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that
>> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
>> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>>
>>> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing
>>> techniques to get a
>>> smooth contour of the true pitch period. I think the pitch estimator
>>> of the
>>> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted
>>> can serve as a
>>> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized
>>> to have
>>> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and
>>> smoothing built-in to
>>> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced
>>> regions of speech.
>>
>> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
>> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too.
>> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume
>> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
>> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
>> current CELT
>> estimator.
>>
>>> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for
>>> 48 kHz speech
>>> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and
>>> re-optimize it to
>>> work better for music as well. We also need to increase the range of
>>> the pitch
>>> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency. Typical pitch frequency
>>> range for
>>> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch
>>> frequencies of music
>>> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or
>>> higher. BV16 and
>>> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~
>>> 1600 Hz,
>>> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch
>>> ranges to be able
>>> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
>>
>> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but my
>> intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100 Hz
>> because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between
>> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
>> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>>
>>> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch
>>> estimator available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32
>>> pitch estimator and
>>> performs better, I am all for it.
>>
>> There's a few more starting with the SILK one, but it may be too
>> good/complex for what we need. The Speex one is fairly complex and not
>> that good, so it's not interesting for this. There's also the codec2
>> low-bitrate vocoder, but I don't know how well its pitch estimator is.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> 	Jean-Marc
>> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 
> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 
> 

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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 00:28:51 +0200 (CEST)
From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode	1	CELT	codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Yes, SILK has 3 complexity settings for the pitch estimator, you probably ran it in the highest setting.  Also make sure to feed it a signal sampled at 16 or 24 kHz - complexity is obviously much higher with 48 kHz data for which it wasn't designed.

I'd expect SILK's quality to be roughly equally sensitive to pitch doublings as CELT with pre/postfilter.  There's a bias towards shorter lags to avoid these.  And (partial) whitening is also quite important for this.

koen.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
To: "Koen Vos" <koen.vos@skype.net>
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 2:29:50 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec

Hi Koen,

Yes, using SILK's estimator is definitely a possibility. My only concern
was that it may be a bit too complex for what we need. Think you'd be
able to add a "low complexity" option to it? Otherwise, the options are
to improve the existing CELT pitch estimator (it's small, fast, just not
very good), or adapt either the estimator from either Broadvoice or the
codec2. I haven't experimented enough to have any preference over any of
these 4 options.

One other question about SILK's pitch predictor. How hard does it work
to prevent pitch doubling (at the expense of finding a slightly poorer
correlation). What I observed (that Raymond had already warned about) is
that pitch doubling is really a problem for the postfilter.

Jean-Marc

On 10-10-25 04:53 PM, Koen Vos wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It may be a good idea to look at SILK's pitch estimator. Having
> duplicate pitch analysis within one codec is not ideal, and the one in
> SILK is quite mature/stable. It may need some changes to work with all
> of CELT's frame sizes, but it already works for 10 and 20 ms frames -
> good enough for testing. As an extra benefit, it efficiently codes the
> pitch evolution over time, which would benefit CELT too.
>
> koen.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
> To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
> Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 12:31:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1
> CELT codec
>
> Hi,
>
> I have checked in an initial implementation in the CELT
> exp_comb_filter branch. Right now the quality is very bad, but that's
> mainly an
> implementation problem. For example, the current pitch estimator I'm
> using has atrocious behaviour when it comes to pitch
> doubling/tripling/... Also,
> I'm still suspecting bugs in the filter's overlap handling.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jean-Marc
>
> On 10-10-23 08:35 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>> Hi Raymond,
>>
>> On 10-10-23 03:50 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>>> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main
>>> emphasis is.
>>> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't
>>> mind having a
>>> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal
>>> with the
>>> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a
>>> common approach used
>>> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are
>>> well aware of),
>>> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of
>>> a strong first
>>> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
>>
>> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that
>> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
>> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>>
>>> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing
>>> techniques to get a
>>> smooth contour of the true pitch period. I think the pitch estimator
>>> of the
>>> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted
>>> can serve as a
>>> good starting point for further development, because it was
>>> optimized to have
>>> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and
>>> smoothing built-in to
>>> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced
>>> regions of speech.
>>
>> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
>> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity
>> too. It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I
>> assume that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the
>> simplified BSD
>> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
>> current CELT
>> estimator.
>>
>>> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for
>>> 48 kHz speech
>>> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and
>>> re-optimize it to
>>> work better for music as well. We also need to increase the range of
>>> the pitch
>>> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency. Typical pitch
>>> frequency range for
>>> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch
>>> frequencies of music
>>> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or
>>> higher. BV16 and
>>> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~
>>> 1600 Hz,
>>> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch
>>> ranges to be able
>>> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
>>
>> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but
>> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100
>> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking
>> between the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without
>> a post-filter. Again worth testing.
>>
>>> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch
>>> estimator available that has even lower complexity than the
>>> BV16/BV32 pitch estimator and
>>> performs better, I am all for it.
>>
>> There's a few more starting with the SILK one, but it may be too
>> good/complex for what we need. The Speex one is fairly complex and
>> not that good, so it's not interesting for this. There's also the
>> codec2 low-bitrate vocoder, but I don't know how well its pitch
>> estimator is.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> 	Jean-Marc
>> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Raymond,

I've just realised that changes in the pitch and/or gain are causing
significant artefacts. While the pitch estimator should definitely
mimimise these changes, I still think they'll be unavoidable. At this
point, I'm not sure whether it's an implementation bug or an issue with
the algorithm.

I've copied below the function I use the the pre-filter and post-filter.
In the case of the pre-filter, the gains are negative, while for the
post-filter, x and y point to the same array. Can you see something
obviously wrong with this code? Otherwise, any idea what the problem may
be? Note that I *do* get perfect reconstruction when the pitch and gain
are constant, or when there's no codec in the middle.


void comb_filter(float *y, float *x, int T0, int T1, int N,
      float g0, float g1, int overlap)
{
   int i;
   for (i=0;i<overlap;i++)
   {
      float f;
      f = i/(float)overlap;
      y[i] = x[i] + (1.-f)*g0*x[i-T0] + f*g1*x[i-T1];
   }
   for (i=overlap;i<N;i++)
      y[i] = x[i] + g1*x[i-T1];
}


Cheers,

	Jean-Marc


On 10-10-23 05:56 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Hi Jean-Marc,
> 
> A few more comments about the technical description document I sent last night:
> 
> (1) I should have clarified: when I said "frame size" in my document, I was
> referring to the frame size for pitch estimation and pitch filter tap calculation,
> not the CELT codec frame size.  For ease of implementation, the boundaries of the
> pitch frames and codec frames should obviously be aligned.  Given that the CELT-only
> mode of the IETF codec has possible frame sizes of 2.5, 5, 10, and 20 ms, I would
> recommend that we update the pitch period and pitch filter tap(s) at a rate of once
> every 5 ms if the CELT frame size is 5, 10, or 20 ms, because updating them once
> every 10 or 20 ms is probably too infrequent and probably will decrease the system's
> effectiveness in the reduction of coding distortion (although it doesn't hurt for
> you to try updating them every 10 or 20 ms to be the same as the codec frame size
> just to see what happens).  On the other hand, if the CELT frame size is 2.5 ms in
> order to achieve an ultra-low delay, then it doesn't make sense for the pitch
> prefilter/postfilter to use a 5 ms frame size since it will just increase the system
> delay.  In this case, even though 2.5 ms pitch frame size may be more frequent than
> necessary and will double the pitch side information bit-rate, it is still a
> necessity just to enable CELT to achieve the ultra-low delay.
> 
> (2) On a second thought, I think to calculate the normalized correlation c or the
> optimal tap weight beta for a single-tap pitch predictor, rather than calculating
> the summation over the current frame (n from 1 to L), it probably makes more sense
> for the summation length to be the extracted pitch period or the pitch frame size,
> whichever is larger. The motivation is this: suppose the pitch frame size is 2.5 ms
> or 5 ms and the pitch period is 15 ms, then trying to measure the level of
> periodicity using only 1/6 to 1/3 of the pitch cycle waveform seems dangerous or at
> least unreliable.  Thus, if the detected pitch period is longer than the frame size,
> then we should sum over all of the samples in the current frame plus more samples in
> the previous frame(s) until the total number of samples in the summation equals the
> pitch period.  If the pitch period is smaller than the frame size and the pitch
> frame size is only 2.5 ms or 5 ms, I recommend just summing over the entire current
> frame.
> 
> (3) If we use multi-tap pitch filters in order to taper off the comb filtering
> effect at higher frequencies, we need to be careful about the stability of the IIR
> pitch filter, especially if the IIR filter is in the decoder side (as is the case in
> my example single-tap all-pole pitch postfilter).  I suppose you probably already
> know this, but I would like to mention and discuss it anyway.  Even though the
> multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter can be an exact inverse filter of a corresponding
> pitch prefilter and supposedly is just "undoing" the effect of the pitch prefilter,
> the quantization errors in the CELT codec and even the effects caused by channel
> errors can potentially make the output of the multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter "go
> wild" (have very large amplitude or even oscillate) if that filter is unstable or
> even if it is only close to unstable (i.e. all poles are inside the unit circle but
> too close to the unit circle).  If the IIR pitch filter is a one-tap filter,
> ensuring the stability is trivial.  If it is a 2-tap or 3-tap filter, Professor
> Peter Kabal and his student Ravi Ramachandran has a nice paper on a stability test
> and a stabilization technique that can be used to ensure the stability of such a
> filter.  Their paper is published in the IEEE Transactions on ASSP, July 1987.  We
> can use that stabilization technique to stabilize every single candidate 2-tap or 3-
> tap filter coefficient set that we will transmit and use, with enough safety margin
> to instability, to ensure that a 2-tap or 3-tap IIR pitch postfilter will not
> amplify the output audio signal wildly.
> 
> Alternatively, we can use the second form of the pitch prefilter and postfilter that
> I mentioned in my document so that the pitch postfilter is a 2-tap or 3-tap FIR
> filter in the form of H(z) = 1 + a1 * z^(-p+1) + a2 * z^-p + a3 * z^(-p-1), with a1
> or a3 equals to zero in the case of a 2-tap filter.  In this case, we will move the
> multi-tap IIR filter from the decoder side to the encoder side where it is applied
> directly to the input audio signal and thus we do not have to worry about CELT
> quantization errors or channel errors driving a "nearly unstable" filter wild.  Of
> course, we do not want the IIR prefilter there to be too close to instability,
> either, otherwise the potential wild swing in its output may still cause problems
> for the CELT codec.  The main advantage of this alternative arrangement is that the
> pitch postfilter is now an FIR filter, which is guaranteed to be stable and no
> amount of CELT coding distortion or channel error will ever "drive it crazy and
> wild" like they can for a multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter that has not been
> stabilized or has not maintained a sufficient safety margin to instability.  The
> main disadvantage of this arrangement is that with an FIR pitch postfilter, its
> frequency response has downward spikes located at pitch harmonics, and it will tend
> to shape the coding noise that way, too.  A noise spectral shape with downward
> spikes is probably not as ideal as the noise spectral shape with upward spikes that
> the all-pole pitch postfilter provides.  This is more so when the parameter bmax is
> closer to 1 but probably won't be too big a deal if bmax is in the neighborhood of
> 0.4 to 0.6.
> 
> Raymond
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:50 PM
> To: Jean-Marc Valin
> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
> Importance: Low
> 
> Hi Jean-Marc,
> 
> You are very welcome. Glad to contribute and glad to know that the document is good
> enough for you to start implementing the techniques.
> 
> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emphasis is.
> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind having a
> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with the
> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common approach used
> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well aware of),
> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a strong first
> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
> 
> If, on the other hand, your main emphasis is to get a codec complexity as low as
> possible, I think it is possible to get a reasonably good pitch period contour by
> using the input signal directly without partial whitening filtering, thus saving the
> complexity of the associated LPC analysis and filtering (which can be relatively
> high for the 48 kHz sampling rate).  Note that when I said "Any low-complexity pitch
> estimator can be used here..." in the document I sent last night, I used the term
> "low-complexity" because I thought you told me you tried to keep the complexity of
> CELT as low as possible.  Since this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach is
> meant to be used with CELT, I thought it is only natural to make the complexity of
> the pitch estimator as low as possible. That's why I used the term "low-complexity
> pitch estimator" in that document.
> 
> I think for this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach to work well, what's most
> important is that we need to do everything we can to ensure that the pitch period we
> extract is the true pitch period rather than an integer multiple or sub-multiple of
> the pitch period.  Unlike speech coding or packet loss concealment applications
> where double pitch period or triple pitch period still gives you decent pitch
> prediction or replacement waveform, here double or triple pitch period will create
> one or two unwanted frequency response peak(s) in the valley regions between pitch
> harmonic peaks and thus will greatly reduce the noise reduction achievable by the
> noise spectral shaping effect of the pitch prefilter/postfilter approach.
> 
> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniques to get a
> smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of the
> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can serve as a
> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to have
> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing built-in to
> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions of speech.
> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 kHz speech
> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimize it to
> work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of the pitch
> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency range for
> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies of music
> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.  BV16 and
> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 Hz,
> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges to be able
> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
> 
> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estimator
> available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estimator and
> performs better, I am all for it.
> 
> Raymond
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]
> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:52 AM
> To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
> 
> Hi Raymond,
> 
> Thank you very much for your contribution and the highly detailed
> description you just sent. I believe I have enough information to start
> implementing it. At this point, I only have one minor question. When
> estimating the pitch period/gain, do you recommend working on the input
> signal directly or should the input be "whitened" using a filter like
> A(z/gamma) (where A(z) is the LPC filter)?
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
>         Jean-Marc
> 
> On 10-10-23 01:13 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method to try to
>> improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for certain audio signals that CELT
>> low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typically nearly periodic solo
>> music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has achieved fairly significant
>> audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that I tried.  This is achieved
>> without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in the codec complexity and
>> encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if a range coder is used).
>>
>> I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him CELT-coded audio signals at
>> different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listening, he agreed that the
>> method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CELT implementation, and he
>> would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to evaluate and verify the
>> performance gain and possibly further develop the method.
>>
>> Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a document and send the
>> document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, understand it, and then implement
>> it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical description of the method.
>>
>> Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is
>> actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried to describe the technical
>> details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had it without any ambiguity,
>> and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for some of the algorithm
>> components in case we need to go those routes.
>>
>> Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to finish a very rough first cut
>> for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine or tune it.  Thus, I am sure
>> there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many areas that can be improved
>> upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first cut showed a lot of promise
>> as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different bit-rates for a trumpet
>> test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems with.  Therefore, after
>> this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT and further refined/tuned, I
>> think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robust to different audio
>> signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many signals that are currently
>> difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio quality level across a wider
>> variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testing, and further development
>> of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is proposed that this pitch
>> prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IETF Opus codec to make the
>> codec more robust to different input signal types.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> 
> 
> 
> 

From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Mon Oct 25 20:27:15 2010
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:29:27 -0400
From: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
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To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
References: <BCB3F026FAC4C145A4A3330806FEFDA93B74DBB75F@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> <C8E70CA9.2552C%stewe@stewe.org> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C75F264FFF8C@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <4CC2DA7E.1060705@usherbrooke.ca> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C75F264FFF94@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <CB68DF4CFBEF4942881AD37AE1A7E8C75F264FFF96@IRVEXCHCCR01.corp.ad.broadcom.com> <4CC63939.9030300@usherbrooke.ca>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT	codec
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Sorry for replying to myself, but before anyone wastes time on this, I'm
fairly sure I found what my error was. It wasn't related to the filter
itself, but the fact that I forgot to compensate for the 2.5 ms delay
introduced by the codec.

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-25 10:13 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
> Hi Raymond,
> 
> I've just realised that changes in the pitch and/or gain are causing
> significant artefacts. While the pitch estimator should definitely
> mimimise these changes, I still think they'll be unavoidable. At this
> point, I'm not sure whether it's an implementation bug or an issue with
> the algorithm.
> 
> I've copied below the function I use the the pre-filter and post-filter.
> In the case of the pre-filter, the gains are negative, while for the
> post-filter, x and y point to the same array. Can you see something
> obviously wrong with this code? Otherwise, any idea what the problem may
> be? Note that I *do* get perfect reconstruction when the pitch and gain
> are constant, or when there's no codec in the middle.
> 
> 
> void comb_filter(float *y, float *x, int T0, int T1, int N,
>       float g0, float g1, int overlap)
> {
>    int i;
>    for (i=0;i<overlap;i++)
>    {
>       float f;
>       f = i/(float)overlap;
>       y[i] = x[i] + (1.-f)*g0*x[i-T0] + f*g1*x[i-T1];
>    }
>    for (i=overlap;i<N;i++)
>       y[i] = x[i] + g1*x[i-T1];
> }
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 	Jean-Marc
> 
> 
> On 10-10-23 05:56 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> A few more comments about the technical description document I sent last night:
>>
>> (1) I should have clarified: when I said "frame size" in my document, I was
>> referring to the frame size for pitch estimation and pitch filter tap calculation,
>> not the CELT codec frame size.  For ease of implementation, the boundaries of the
>> pitch frames and codec frames should obviously be aligned.  Given that the CELT-only
>> mode of the IETF codec has possible frame sizes of 2.5, 5, 10, and 20 ms, I would
>> recommend that we update the pitch period and pitch filter tap(s) at a rate of once
>> every 5 ms if the CELT frame size is 5, 10, or 20 ms, because updating them once
>> every 10 or 20 ms is probably too infrequent and probably will decrease the system's
>> effectiveness in the reduction of coding distortion (although it doesn't hurt for
>> you to try updating them every 10 or 20 ms to be the same as the codec frame size
>> just to see what happens).  On the other hand, if the CELT frame size is 2.5 ms in
>> order to achieve an ultra-low delay, then it doesn't make sense for the pitch
>> prefilter/postfilter to use a 5 ms frame size since it will just increase the system
>> delay.  In this case, even though 2.5 ms pitch frame size may be more frequent than
>> necessary and will double the pitch side information bit-rate, it is still a
>> necessity just to enable CELT to achieve the ultra-low delay.
>>
>> (2) On a second thought, I think to calculate the normalized correlation c or the
>> optimal tap weight beta for a single-tap pitch predictor, rather than calculating
>> the summation over the current frame (n from 1 to L), it probably makes more sense
>> for the summation length to be the extracted pitch period or the pitch frame size,
>> whichever is larger. The motivation is this: suppose the pitch frame size is 2.5 ms
>> or 5 ms and the pitch period is 15 ms, then trying to measure the level of
>> periodicity using only 1/6 to 1/3 of the pitch cycle waveform seems dangerous or at
>> least unreliable.  Thus, if the detected pitch period is longer than the frame size,
>> then we should sum over all of the samples in the current frame plus more samples in
>> the previous frame(s) until the total number of samples in the summation equals the
>> pitch period.  If the pitch period is smaller than the frame size and the pitch
>> frame size is only 2.5 ms or 5 ms, I recommend just summing over the entire current
>> frame.
>>
>> (3) If we use multi-tap pitch filters in order to taper off the comb filtering
>> effect at higher frequencies, we need to be careful about the stability of the IIR
>> pitch filter, especially if the IIR filter is in the decoder side (as is the case in
>> my example single-tap all-pole pitch postfilter).  I suppose you probably already
>> know this, but I would like to mention and discuss it anyway.  Even though the
>> multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter can be an exact inverse filter of a corresponding
>> pitch prefilter and supposedly is just "undoing" the effect of the pitch prefilter,
>> the quantization errors in the CELT codec and even the effects caused by channel
>> errors can potentially make the output of the multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter "go
>> wild" (have very large amplitude or even oscillate) if that filter is unstable or
>> even if it is only close to unstable (i.e. all poles are inside the unit circle but
>> too close to the unit circle).  If the IIR pitch filter is a one-tap filter,
>> ensuring the stability is trivial.  If it is a 2-tap or 3-tap filter, Professor
>> Peter Kabal and his student Ravi Ramachandran has a nice paper on a stability test
>> and a stabilization technique that can be used to ensure the stability of such a
>> filter.  Their paper is published in the IEEE Transactions on ASSP, July 1987.  We
>> can use that stabilization technique to stabilize every single candidate 2-tap or 3-
>> tap filter coefficient set that we will transmit and use, with enough safety margin
>> to instability, to ensure that a 2-tap or 3-tap IIR pitch postfilter will not
>> amplify the output audio signal wildly.
>>
>> Alternatively, we can use the second form of the pitch prefilter and postfilter that
>> I mentioned in my document so that the pitch postfilter is a 2-tap or 3-tap FIR
>> filter in the form of H(z) = 1 + a1 * z^(-p+1) + a2 * z^-p + a3 * z^(-p-1), with a1
>> or a3 equals to zero in the case of a 2-tap filter.  In this case, we will move the
>> multi-tap IIR filter from the decoder side to the encoder side where it is applied
>> directly to the input audio signal and thus we do not have to worry about CELT
>> quantization errors or channel errors driving a "nearly unstable" filter wild.  Of
>> course, we do not want the IIR prefilter there to be too close to instability,
>> either, otherwise the potential wild swing in its output may still cause problems
>> for the CELT codec.  The main advantage of this alternative arrangement is that the
>> pitch postfilter is now an FIR filter, which is guaranteed to be stable and no
>> amount of CELT coding distortion or channel error will ever "drive it crazy and
>> wild" like they can for a multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter that has not been
>> stabilized or has not maintained a sufficient safety margin to instability.  The
>> main disadvantage of this arrangement is that with an FIR pitch postfilter, its
>> frequency response has downward spikes located at pitch harmonics, and it will tend
>> to shape the coding noise that way, too.  A noise spectral shape with downward
>> spikes is probably not as ideal as the noise spectral shape with upward spikes that
>> the all-pole pitch postfilter provides.  This is more so when the parameter bmax is
>> closer to 1 but probably won't be too big a deal if bmax is in the neighborhood of
>> 0.4 to 0.6.
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:50 PM
>> To: Jean-Marc Valin
>> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
>> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
>> Importance: Low
>>
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> You are very welcome. Glad to contribute and glad to know that the document is good
>> enough for you to start implementing the techniques.
>>
>> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emphasis is.
>> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind having a
>> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with the
>> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common approach used
>> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well aware of),
>> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a strong first
>> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
>>
>> If, on the other hand, your main emphasis is to get a codec complexity as low as
>> possible, I think it is possible to get a reasonably good pitch period contour by
>> using the input signal directly without partial whitening filtering, thus saving the
>> complexity of the associated LPC analysis and filtering (which can be relatively
>> high for the 48 kHz sampling rate).  Note that when I said "Any low-complexity pitch
>> estimator can be used here..." in the document I sent last night, I used the term
>> "low-complexity" because I thought you told me you tried to keep the complexity of
>> CELT as low as possible.  Since this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach is
>> meant to be used with CELT, I thought it is only natural to make the complexity of
>> the pitch estimator as low as possible. That's why I used the term "low-complexity
>> pitch estimator" in that document.
>>
>> I think for this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach to work well, what's most
>> important is that we need to do everything we can to ensure that the pitch period we
>> extract is the true pitch period rather than an integer multiple or sub-multiple of
>> the pitch period.  Unlike speech coding or packet loss concealment applications
>> where double pitch period or triple pitch period still gives you decent pitch
>> prediction or replacement waveform, here double or triple pitch period will create
>> one or two unwanted frequency response peak(s) in the valley regions between pitch
>> harmonic peaks and thus will greatly reduce the noise reduction achievable by the
>> noise spectral shaping effect of the pitch prefilter/postfilter approach.
>>
>> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniques to get a
>> smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of the
>> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can serve as a
>> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to have
>> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing built-in to
>> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions of speech.
>> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 kHz speech
>> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimize it to
>> work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of the pitch
>> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency range for
>> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies of music
>> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.  BV16 and
>> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 Hz,
>> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges to be able
>> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
>>
>> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estimator
>> available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estimator and
>> performs better, I am all for it.
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]
>> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:52 AM
>> To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
>> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
>>
>> Hi Raymond,
>>
>> Thank you very much for your contribution and the highly detailed
>> description you just sent. I believe I have enough information to start
>> implementing it. At this point, I only have one minor question. When
>> estimating the pitch period/gain, do you recommend working on the input
>> signal directly or should the input be "whitened" using a filter like
>> A(z/gamma) (where A(z) is the LPC filter)?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>>         Jean-Marc
>>
>> On 10-10-23 01:13 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method to try to
>>> improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for certain audio signals that CELT
>>> low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typically nearly periodic solo
>>> music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has achieved fairly significant
>>> audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that I tried.  This is achieved
>>> without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in the codec complexity and
>>> encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if a range coder is used).
>>>
>>> I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him CELT-coded audio signals at
>>> different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listening, he agreed that the
>>> method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CELT implementation, and he
>>> would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to evaluate and verify the
>>> performance gain and possibly further develop the method.
>>>
>>> Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a document and send the
>>> document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, understand it, and then implement
>>> it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical description of the method.
>>>
>>> Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is
>>> actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried to describe the technical
>>> details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had it without any ambiguity,
>>> and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for some of the algorithm
>>> components in case we need to go those routes.
>>>
>>> Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to finish a very rough first cut
>>> for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine or tune it.  Thus, I am sure
>>> there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many areas that can be improved
>>> upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first cut showed a lot of promise
>>> as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different bit-rates for a trumpet
>>> test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems with.  Therefore, after
>>> this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT and further refined/tuned, I
>>> think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robust to different audio
>>> signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many signals that are currently
>>> difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio quality level across a wider
>>> variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testing, and further development
>>> of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is proposed that this pitch
>>> prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IETF Opus codec to make the
>>> codec more robust to different input signal types.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Raymond
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 

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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Sorry for the late reply.  As I mentioned to you before, I have been and wo=
uld be in an off-site conference for a few days and I generally don't have =
Internet access there during the day, so I could not respond earlier.  Sorr=
y.

Glad to hear that you found the error.  To verify the performance of your p=
refilter/postfilter implementation, I suggest that you try to use the same =
trumpet signal that I used before and test the prefilter followed by postfi=
lter with and without CELT coding, and then listen to them and compare them=
 with the output signals I sent you previously to see if you get similar au=
dio quality for the same condition.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:29 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin
Cc: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen; 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Sorry for replying to myself, but before anyone wastes time on this, I'm
fairly sure I found what my error was. It wasn't related to the filter
itself, but the fact that I forgot to compensate for the 2.5 ms delay
introduced by the codec.

        Jean-Marc

On 10-10-25 10:13 PM, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
> Hi Raymond,
>
> I've just realised that changes in the pitch and/or gain are causing
> significant artefacts. While the pitch estimator should definitely
> mimimise these changes, I still think they'll be unavoidable. At this
> point, I'm not sure whether it's an implementation bug or an issue with
> the algorithm.
>
> I've copied below the function I use the the pre-filter and post-filter.
> In the case of the pre-filter, the gains are negative, while for the
> post-filter, x and y point to the same array. Can you see something
> obviously wrong with this code? Otherwise, any idea what the problem may
> be? Note that I *do* get perfect reconstruction when the pitch and gain
> are constant, or when there's no codec in the middle.
>
>
> void comb_filter(float *y, float *x, int T0, int T1, int N,
>       float g0, float g1, int overlap)
> {
>    int i;
>    for (i=3D0;i<overlap;i++)
>    {
>       float f;
>       f =3D i/(float)overlap;
>       y[i] =3D x[i] + (1.-f)*g0*x[i-T0] + f*g1*x[i-T1];
>    }
>    for (i=3Doverlap;i<N;i++)
>       y[i] =3D x[i] + g1*x[i-T1];
> }
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>       Jean-Marc
>
>
> On 10-10-23 05:56 PM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> A few more comments about the technical description document I sent last=
 night:
>>
>> (1) I should have clarified: when I said "frame size" in my document, I =
was
>> referring to the frame size for pitch estimation and pitch filter tap ca=
lculation,
>> not the CELT codec frame size.  For ease of implementation, the boundari=
es of the
>> pitch frames and codec frames should obviously be aligned.  Given that t=
he CELT-only
>> mode of the IETF codec has possible frame sizes of 2.5, 5, 10, and 20 ms=
, I would
>> recommend that we update the pitch period and pitch filter tap(s) at a r=
ate of once
>> every 5 ms if the CELT frame size is 5, 10, or 20 ms, because updating t=
hem once
>> every 10 or 20 ms is probably too infrequent and probably will decrease =
the system's
>> effectiveness in the reduction of coding distortion (although it doesn't=
 hurt for
>> you to try updating them every 10 or 20 ms to be the same as the codec f=
rame size
>> just to see what happens).  On the other hand, if the CELT frame size is=
 2.5 ms in
>> order to achieve an ultra-low delay, then it doesn't make sense for the =
pitch
>> prefilter/postfilter to use a 5 ms frame size since it will just increas=
e the system
>> delay.  In this case, even though 2.5 ms pitch frame size may be more fr=
equent than
>> necessary and will double the pitch side information bit-rate, it is sti=
ll a
>> necessity just to enable CELT to achieve the ultra-low delay.
>>
>> (2) On a second thought, I think to calculate the normalized correlation=
 c or the
>> optimal tap weight beta for a single-tap pitch predictor, rather than ca=
lculating
>> the summation over the current frame (n from 1 to L), it probably makes =
more sense
>> for the summation length to be the extracted pitch period or the pitch f=
rame size,
>> whichever is larger. The motivation is this: suppose the pitch frame siz=
e is 2.5 ms
>> or 5 ms and the pitch period is 15 ms, then trying to measure the level =
of
>> periodicity using only 1/6 to 1/3 of the pitch cycle waveform seems dang=
erous or at
>> least unreliable.  Thus, if the detected pitch period is longer than the=
 frame size,
>> then we should sum over all of the samples in the current frame plus mor=
e samples in
>> the previous frame(s) until the total number of samples in the summation=
 equals the
>> pitch period.  If the pitch period is smaller than the frame size and th=
e pitch
>> frame size is only 2.5 ms or 5 ms, I recommend just summing over the ent=
ire current
>> frame.
>>
>> (3) If we use multi-tap pitch filters in order to taper off the comb fil=
tering
>> effect at higher frequencies, we need to be careful about the stability =
of the IIR
>> pitch filter, especially if the IIR filter is in the decoder side (as is=
 the case in
>> my example single-tap all-pole pitch postfilter).  I suppose you probabl=
y already
>> know this, but I would like to mention and discuss it anyway.  Even thou=
gh the
>> multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter can be an exact inverse filter of a corre=
sponding
>> pitch prefilter and supposedly is just "undoing" the effect of the pitch=
 prefilter,
>> the quantization errors in the CELT codec and even the effects caused by=
 channel
>> errors can potentially make the output of the multi-tap IIR pitch postfi=
lter "go
>> wild" (have very large amplitude or even oscillate) if that filter is un=
stable or
>> even if it is only close to unstable (i.e. all poles are inside the unit=
 circle but
>> too close to the unit circle).  If the IIR pitch filter is a one-tap fil=
ter,
>> ensuring the stability is trivial.  If it is a 2-tap or 3-tap filter, Pr=
ofessor
>> Peter Kabal and his student Ravi Ramachandran has a nice paper on a stab=
ility test
>> and a stabilization technique that can be used to ensure the stability o=
f such a
>> filter.  Their paper is published in the IEEE Transactions on ASSP, July=
 1987.  We
>> can use that stabilization technique to stabilize every single candidate=
 2-tap or 3-
>> tap filter coefficient set that we will transmit and use, with enough sa=
fety margin
>> to instability, to ensure that a 2-tap or 3-tap IIR pitch postfilter wil=
l not
>> amplify the output audio signal wildly.
>>
>> Alternatively, we can use the second form of the pitch prefilter and pos=
tfilter that
>> I mentioned in my document so that the pitch postfilter is a 2-tap or 3-=
tap FIR
>> filter in the form of H(z) =3D 1 + a1 * z^(-p+1) + a2 * z^-p + a3 * z^(-=
p-1), with a1
>> or a3 equals to zero in the case of a 2-tap filter.  In this case, we wi=
ll move the
>> multi-tap IIR filter from the decoder side to the encoder side where it =
is applied
>> directly to the input audio signal and thus we do not have to worry abou=
t CELT
>> quantization errors or channel errors driving a "nearly unstable" filter=
 wild.  Of
>> course, we do not want the IIR prefilter there to be too close to instab=
ility,
>> either, otherwise the potential wild swing in its output may still cause=
 problems
>> for the CELT codec.  The main advantage of this alternative arrangement =
is that the
>> pitch postfilter is now an FIR filter, which is guaranteed to be stable =
and no
>> amount of CELT coding distortion or channel error will ever "drive it cr=
azy and
>> wild" like they can for a multi-tap IIR pitch postfilter that has not be=
en
>> stabilized or has not maintained a sufficient safety margin to instabili=
ty.  The
>> main disadvantage of this arrangement is that with an FIR pitch postfilt=
er, its
>> frequency response has downward spikes located at pitch harmonics, and i=
t will tend
>> to shape the coding noise that way, too.  A noise spectral shape with do=
wnward
>> spikes is probably not as ideal as the noise spectral shape with upward =
spikes that
>> the all-pole pitch postfilter provides.  This is more so when the parame=
ter bmax is
>> closer to 1 but probably won't be too big a deal if bmax is in the neigh=
borhood of
>> 0.4 to 0.6.
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O=
f Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:50 PM
>> To: Jean-Marc Valin
>> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
>> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT=
 codec
>> Importance: Low
>>
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> You are very welcome. Glad to contribute and glad to know that the docum=
ent is good
>> enough for you to start implementing the techniques.
>>
>> Regarding your question, I think it really depends on what your main emp=
hasis is.
>> If you just want the best possible pitch period contour and don't mind h=
aving a
>> little higher complexity, then partially whitening the input signal with=
 the
>> A(z/gamma) or A(z)/A(z/gamma) or even A(z/alpha)/A(z/beta) is a common a=
pproach used
>> in the pitch estimators of many speech codecs (as I am sure you are well=
 aware of),
>> and it does help to reduce the chance of detecting the frequency of a st=
rong first
>> formant of the input speech signal as the pitch frequency.
>>
>> If, on the other hand, your main emphasis is to get a codec complexity a=
s low as
>> possible, I think it is possible to get a reasonably good pitch period c=
ontour by
>> using the input signal directly without partial whitening filtering, thu=
s saving the
>> complexity of the associated LPC analysis and filtering (which can be re=
latively
>> high for the 48 kHz sampling rate).  Note that when I said "Any low-comp=
lexity pitch
>> estimator can be used here..." in the document I sent last night, I used=
 the term
>> "low-complexity" because I thought you told me you tried to keep the com=
plexity of
>> CELT as low as possible.  Since this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering ap=
proach is
>> meant to be used with CELT, I thought it is only natural to make the com=
plexity of
>> the pitch estimator as low as possible. That's why I used the term "low-=
complexity
>> pitch estimator" in that document.
>>
>> I think for this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering approach to work well,=
 what's most
>> important is that we need to do everything we can to ensure that the pit=
ch period we
>> extract is the true pitch period rather than an integer multiple or sub-=
multiple of
>> the pitch period.  Unlike speech coding or packet loss concealment appli=
cations
>> where double pitch period or triple pitch period still gives you decent =
pitch
>> prediction or replacement waveform, here double or triple pitch period w=
ill create
>> one or two unwanted frequency response peak(s) in the valley regions bet=
ween pitch
>> harmonic peaks and thus will greatly reduce the noise reduction achievab=
le by the
>> noise spectral shaping effect of the pitch prefilter/postfilter approach=
.
>>
>> Hence, ideally we should have some decision logic and smoothing techniqu=
es to get a
>> smooth contour of the true pitch period.  I think the pitch estimator of=
 the
>> BroadVoice codecs (BV16 and BV32) that Broadcom previously submitted can=
 serve as a
>> good starting point for further development, because it was optimized to=
 have
>> relatively low complexity and it also has decision logic and smoothing b=
uilt-in to
>> try to get a smooth contour of the true pitch period for voiced regions =
of speech.
>> It is optimized for 8 kHz or 16 kHz speech signals, so to use it for 48 =
kHz speech
>> and music signals, we need to adjust the decimation factor and re-optimi=
ze it to
>> work better for music as well.  We also need to increase the range of th=
e pitch
>> period, or equivalently, the pitch frequency.  Typical pitch frequency r=
ange for
>> adult voice is somewhere around 50 to 400 Hz, but the pitch frequencies =
of music
>> instruments cover a much wider range and can go up to 1600 Hz or higher.=
  BV16 and
>> BV32 detectable pitch ranges are around 59 Hz ~ 800 Hz and 60 Hz ~ 1600 =
Hz,
>> respectively, because we previously already increased their pitch ranges=
 to be able
>> to detect the pitch of some of the music instruments.
>>
>> Of course, if there is another royalty-free and unencumbered pitch estim=
ator
>> available that has even lower complexity than the BV16/BV32 pitch estima=
tor and
>> performs better, I am all for it.
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]
>> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:52 AM
>> To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>> Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'
>> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT=
 codec
>>
>> Hi Raymond,
>>
>> Thank you very much for your contribution and the highly detailed
>> description you just sent. I believe I have enough information to start
>> implementing it. At this point, I only have one minor question. When
>> estimating the pitch period/gain, do you recommend working on the input
>> signal directly or should the input be "whitened" using a filter like
>> A(z/gamma) (where A(z) is the LPC filter)?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>>         Jean-Marc
>>
>> On 10-10-23 01:13 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> In the last few weeks, I have been working on a pitch prefiltering/post=
filtering method to try to
>>> improve the output audio quality of the IETF mode 1 CELT codec for cert=
ain audio signals that CELT
>>> low-delay modes give more audible coding distortion than usual (typical=
ly nearly periodic solo
>>> music instrument signals).  I am happy to report that this method has a=
chieved fairly significant
>>> audio quality improvement for many of these kinds of audio signals that=
 I tried.  This is achieved
>>> without increasing the coding delay and with only a slight increase in =
the codec complexity and
>>> encoding bit-rate (a potential increase of around 2 kb/s or so; less if=
 a range coder is used).
>>>
>>> I have been in discussion with Jean-Marc about this and have sent him C=
ELT-coded audio signals at
>>> different bit-rates obtained with or without this method.  After listen=
ing, he agreed that the
>>> method made a significant improvement when compared with the current CE=
LT implementation, and he
>>> would like to try to incorporate this method into his CELT C code to ev=
aluate and verify the
>>> performance gain and possibly further develop the method.
>>>
>>> Jean-Marc asked me to write a detailed description of the method in a d=
ocument and send the
>>> document to the IETF codec WG email reflector so he can read it, unders=
tand it, and then implement
>>> it himself in his CELT C code.  I am attaching such a technical descrip=
tion of the method.
>>>
>>> Note that although this document is 7 pages long, the pitch prefilterin=
g/postfiltering method is
>>> actually quite simple.  The document is long only because (1) I tried t=
o describe the technical
>>> details as much as I can so Jean-Marc can implement it exactly as I had=
 it without any ambiguity,
>>> and (2) I also described/discussed a few alternative approaches for som=
e of the algorithm
>>> components in case we need to go those routes.
>>>
>>> Note also that this is "fresh out of the oven" as I only had time to fi=
nish a very rough first cut
>>> for a proof-of-concept simulation and did not have time yet to refine o=
r tune it.  Thus, I am sure
>>> there are still many rough edges that need to be smoothed out and many =
areas that can be improved
>>> upon.  However, I am very much encouraged that even such a rough first =
cut showed a lot of promise
>>> as it made a very large audio quality improvement at several different =
bit-rates for a trumpet
>>> test signal, which is a signal that CELT low-delay modes have problems =
with.  Therefore, after
>>> this pitch prefiltering/postfiltering method is integrated into CELT an=
d further refined/tuned, I
>>> think it has the potential to make the IETF mode 1 CELT codec more robu=
st to different audio
>>> signals.  That is, it can potentially improve CELT performance for many=
 signals that are currently
>>> difficult for CELT to code well, and thus ensure a more uniform audio q=
uality level across a wider
>>> variety of different audio signals.  If Jean-Marc's integration, testin=
g, and further development
>>> of this pitch filtering method confirms this potential, then it is prop=
osed that this pitch
>>> prefiltering/postfiltering method be incorporated into Mode 1 of the IE=
TF Opus codec to make the
>>> codec more robust to different input signal types.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Raymond
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> codec mailing list
>>> codec@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>



From rchen@broadcom.com  Mon Oct 25 23:39:16 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

See my in-line comments below.

You wrote:
> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that a
> non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb filter
> to be turned on with a high gain.

[Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial harmonics for a s=
ingle sinusoid.  On the other hand, my concern is that if you derive the ga=
in (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the gain or taps may=
 be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech signals.  To address =
both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best to use a 3-tap filte=
r where the taps are derived directly from the input signal without whiteni=
ng.  Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper off the degree of comb f=
iltering with increasing frequency, a set of 3 filter taps that is chosen t=
o match the input spectrum can probably have a reasonable spectral match fo=
r either a single tone or music/speech with a harmonic structure.  The Broa=
dVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch predictor.  The way those 3 taps are jointl=
y searched and vector quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps =
and do a spectral match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/po=
stfilter approach.  We need to experiment to find out.  The BroadVoice code=
books for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech.  If we adopt this a=
pproach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music signals in =
the training set.  If you are particularly concerned with a single sinusoid=
, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors using just sinusoids.=
  If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could potentially design=
 a detector that detect (nearly) periodic time-domain waveform that does no=
t have a spectrum with a harmonic structure (like a single sinusoid) and tu=
rn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.

> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's very
> good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too. It's
> part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume that
> Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD license
> (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the current CELT
> estimator.

[Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that question soon=
.  My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow royalty-fre=
e use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing certain components of =
it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensing terms is probably no=
t a problem, but this is just my personal thought and not an official Broad=
com position yet.  I will talk to our lawyer and let him give the formal an=
swer.

> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but my
> intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100 Hz
> because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between the
> harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a post-filter.
> Again worth testing.

[Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has better noise ma=
sking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for female spee=
ch than for male speech.  However, my previous work with pitch postfilterin=
g during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering alone could still g=
ive audible quality improvement to low-bit-rate-coded male speech.  Does it=
 improve quality when the pitch frequency is below 100 Hz? I don't remember=
 the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfilter tests.  I agree it is worth t=
esting.



From jonas.svedberg@ericsson.com  Tue Oct 26 04:38:42 2010
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From: Jonas Svedberg <jonas.svedberg@ericsson.com>
To: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:40:22 +0200
Thread-Topic: Proposed Guidelines update , was: Re:Opus codec licensing
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Cc: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: [codec] Proposed Guidelines update , was: Re:Opus codec licensing
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--_002_DEAE495523C8F140A875D22C7C59D31902FC0921ESESSCMS0356eem_
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 Hi all=20

  from my point of view it is beneficial if we can boil down the current di=
scussion on licensing and IPR disclosures=20
  to what should be included in our WGs process document (guidelines).=20

=20
   With regard to the  current proposed guidelines text v07, it is in secti=
on  5 refering to BCP79:=20
   "In general, IETF working groups prefer technologies with no known IPR c=
laims or, for technologies with=20
   claims against them, an offer of royalty-free licensing."=20

    This BCP79 reference to does not state a preference between the two bas=
ic forms of Royalty Free=20
       A) 'RF' where 'No license is required'  (no royalities, no entering =
into any agreement )=20
       B) 'RF'-licensing, where obtaining a license and entering into an ag=
reement is still required.=20

     In form B) the licensing terms may include limitations and/or compensa=
tions which are identified as encumbrances by=20
     the charter of this WG.  Reading the charter, it defines encumbrance a=
s :
       "... need to request a license, enter into a business agreement, pay=
 licensing fees or royalties,=20
        or attempt to adhere to other special conditions or restrictions".=
=20

     The charter further expresses as one of the goals:=20
       "The working group cannot explicitly rule out the possibility of ado=
pting encumbered technologies; =20
        however, the working group will try to avoid encumbered technologie=
s that require royalties or=20
        other encumbrances that would prevent such technologies from being =
easy to redistribute and use."

      Hence, in the spirit of the charter and the creation of the WG,=20
      we  should make it clear in the guidelines that royalty-free licensin=
g by no means is identical with unencumbrance=20
      and that proposed technology adhereing to the 'No lic. required optio=
n' should be prefered if the WG is presented=20
      with such a choice.

     Also in light of the discussion, it seems reasonable to state in the g=
uidelines that any inclusion of technology=20
     into the codec will not be considered unless proper IP disclosure for =
the contribution has been made.=20

 =20
    Attached is an proposed updated guidelines (section 5, page ~10), with =
change marks. =20


//BR Jonas=20

--_002_DEAE495523C8F140A875D22C7C59D31902FC0921ESESSCMS0356eem_
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From mknappe@juniper.net  Tue Oct 26 10:42:16 2010
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From: Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
To: Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>, "roman@telurix.com" <roman@telurix.com>, "mlubo@dolby.com" <mlubo@dolby.com>, "jan.skoglund@gipscorp.com" <jan.skoglund@gipscorp.com>, "Stephan@vidyo.com" <Stephan@vidyo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:40:13 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] semi-formal audio quality testing discussion
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Subject: [codec]  semi-formal audio quality testing discussion
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Those on the To: list have expressed interest in performing semi-formal aud=
io subjective testing on the candidate codec. If possible, let=92s have a c=
onference call sometime next week so we can begin discussion of this testin=
g prior to the Beijing meeting. Let me know what times will work for you. A=
nd of course, anyone on the codec list interested in joining in, please let=
 me know.

Some items to discuss:

 *   choosing representative source material (languages, music genres, etc)
 *   orthogonality of test cases (bit rates / internal sample rates, packet=
 loss conditions, etc)
 *   representative packet loss scenarios
 *   subjective pool size
 *   how often to test
 *   etc etc

Cheers,

Mike

From mknappe@juniper.net  Tue Oct 26 10:43:30 2010
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From: Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
To: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:44:45 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
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Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to joi=
n me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for dinner a=
nd drinks. Email back if you=92re interested so I can tally a rough number =
for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and I=92ll se=
nd out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the restaurant is de=
cided.

It=92s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG participan=
ts in an informal setting, hope to see you there!

Cheers,

Mike




From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Tue Oct 26 11:26:44 2010
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Cc: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Raymond,

I've been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what you got 
earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well on 
other files I'm trying. For example on this one 
(http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw) there is simply too much pitch 
doubling and I'm not actually sure it's possible to do a good job. Could 
you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think one of 
the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all 
circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm in 
cases where it cannot help.

Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important question 
is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is it 
necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male and 
even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's only on 
strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The main 
reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there's a memory 
footprint issue that's directly related. In any case, we'll need to 
experiment as with anything else.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Hi Jean-Marc,
>
> See my in-line comments below.
>
> You wrote:
>> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that
>> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
>> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>
> [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial harmonics for
> a single sinusoid.  On the other hand, my concern is that if you derive
> the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the gain or
> taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech signals.
> To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best to use
> a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input signal
> without whitening.  Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper off
> the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3
> filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can probably have
> a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/speech
> with a harmonic structure.  The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch
> predictor.  The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector
> quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a spectral
> match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter
> approa ch.  We need to experiment to find out.  The BroadVoice codebooks
> for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech.  If we adopt this
> approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music signals
> in the training set.  If you are particularly concerned with a single
> sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors using just
> sinusoids.  If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could
> potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic time-domain
> waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure (like a
> single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.
>
>> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
>> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too.
>> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume
>> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
>> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
>> current CELT estimator.
>
> [Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that question
> soon.  My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow
> royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing certain
> components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensing
> terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thought
> and not an official Broadcom position yet.  I will talk to our lawyer
> and let him give the formal answer.
>
>> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but
>> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100
>> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between
>> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
>> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>
> [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has better noise
> masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for female
> speech than for male speech.  However, my previous work with pitch
> postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering
> alone could still give audible quality improvement to low-bit-rate-coded
> male speech.  Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is below
> 100 Hz? I don't remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfilter
> tests.  I agree it is worth testing.
>
>
> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stewe@stewe.org  Tue Oct 26 11:56:26 2010
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From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
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I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
meeting.
Stephan


On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote:

>Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
>join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
>dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a rough
>number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and
>I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
>restaurant is decided.
>
>It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
>participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>codec mailing list
>codec@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



From mknappe@juniper.net  Tue Oct 26 12:11:01 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
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Stephan,

This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
To: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010=0A=
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
meeting.
Stephan


On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote:

>Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
>join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
>dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a roug=
h
>number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and
>I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
>restaurant is decided.
>
>It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
>participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>codec mailing list
>codec@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

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Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
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On 10-10-26 03:12 PM, Michael Knappe wrote:
> Stephan,
>
> This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?

I am.

	Jean-Marc

> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org<codec-bounces@ietf.org>
> To: codec@ietf.org<codec@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010
> Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
>
> I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
> meeting.
> Stephan
>
>
> On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe"<mknappe@juniper.net>  wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
>> join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
>> dinner and drinks. Email back if you¹re interested so I can tally a rough
>> number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and
>> I¹ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
>> restaurant is decided.
>>
>> It¹s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
>> participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


From stephen.botzko@gmail.com  Tue Oct 26 12:17:11 2010
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To: Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
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I will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.

Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote=
:

> Stephan,
>
> This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
> To: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010
> Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
>
> I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
> meeting.
> Stephan
>
>
> On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
> >join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
> >dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a ro=
ugh
> >number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and
> >I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
> >restaurant is decided.
> >
> >It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
> >participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >codec mailing list
> >codec@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

--0015174c33ce1da345049389face
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I will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.<br><br>S=
tephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:1=
2 PM, Michael Knappe <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mknappe@junipe=
r.net">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Stephan,<br>
<br>
This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010<br>
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing<br>
<br>
I&#39;ll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for th=
e<br>
meeting.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.26.2010 10:44 , &quot;Michael Knappe&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mkna=
ppe@juniper.net">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to=
<br>
&gt;join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for<b=
r>
&gt;dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a r=
ough<br>
&gt;number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, an=
d<br>
&gt;I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the<br>
&gt;restaurant is decided.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG<br>
&gt;participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mike<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;codec mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--0015174c33ce1da345049389face--

From gmaxwell@juniper.net  Tue Oct 26 12:57:02 2010
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From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@juniper.net>
To: Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>, "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:57:37 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Cc: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT	codec
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Jean-Marc Valin [jean-marc.valin@octasic.com] wrote:
> Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important questio=
n
> is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is it
> necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male and
> even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's only =
on

You should be mindful of the low delay modes. At moderate rates in the 5ms =
mode, for example.

I would expect the need for this to be stronger in these cases, so the bits=
tream should support them.

I think we're currently at an order of magnitude less memory than anyone ha=
s suggested was a requirement on the list=97 and decoders will typically wa=
nt a fair amount of memory for PLC purposes=97 so I think we have room to b=
reath on the design right now and can worry about putting it on a diet afte=
r the technique's usefulness has been demonstrated in an implementation.

 =

From hoene@uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Oct 26 18:58:14 2010
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From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "'Stephen Botzko'" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "'Michael Knappe'" <mknappe@juniper.net>
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Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
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Me, too.

=20

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

=20

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Stephen Botzko
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM
To: Michael Knappe
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

=20

I will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.

Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net> =
wrote:

Stephan,

This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
To: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
meeting.
Stephan


On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote:

>Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
>join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
>dinner and drinks. Email back if you=C2=B9re interested so I can tally =
a rough
>number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, =
and
>I=C2=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
>restaurant is decided.
>
>It=C2=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
>participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>codec mailing list
>codec@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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color:#1F497D'>Me, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=C3=BCbingen <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 =
2970532 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'><a =
href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de=
/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
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0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Stephen
Botzko<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Knappe<br>
<b>Cc:</b> codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in =
Beijing<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I will be there, and =
would be
happy to join you on Monday evening.<br>
<br>
Stephen Botzko<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Stephan,<br>
<br>
This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at =
IETF79?<br>
<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>=

To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010<br>
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing<br>
<br>
I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for =
the<br>
meeting.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.26.2010 10:44 , &quot;Michael Knappe&quot; &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity =
to<br>
&gt;join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant =
for<br>
&gt;dinner and drinks. Email back if you=C2=B9re interested so I can =
tally a rough<br>
&gt;number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, =
and<br>
&gt;I=C2=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once =
the<br>
&gt;restaurant is decided.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;It=C2=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec =
WG<br>
&gt;participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mike<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;codec mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
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codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
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Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
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+1=20
koen=20


From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>=20
To: "Stephen Botzko" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@=
juniper.net>=20
Cc: codec@ietf.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:59:53 PM=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing=20




Me, too.=20



---------------------------------------------------------------=20

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene=20

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen=20

Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532=20

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/=20




From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=
tephen Botzko=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM=20
To: Michael Knappe=20
Cc: codec@ietf.org=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing=20



I will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.=20

Stephen Botzko=20


On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe < mknappe@juniper.net > wro=
te:=20

Stephan,=20

This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?=20

Mike=20




----- Original Message -----=20
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org < codec-bounces@ietf.org >=20
To: codec@ietf.org < codec@ietf.org >=20
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010=20
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing=20

I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the=20
meeting.=20
Stephan=20


On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" < mknappe@juniper.net > wrote:=20

>Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to=20
>join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for=20
>dinner and drinks. Email back if you=C2=B9re interested so I can tally a r=
ough=20
>number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and=
=20
>I=C2=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the=20
>restaurant is decided.=20
>=20
>It=C2=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG=20
>participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!=20
>=20
>Cheers,=20
>=20
>Mike=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>_______________________________________________=20
>codec mailing list=20
> codec@ietf.org=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20


_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20
_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20


_______________________________________________=20
codec mailing list=20
codec@ietf.org=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec=20

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div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
>+1 <br>koen<br><br><hr><b>From: </b>"Christian Hoene" &lt;hoene@uni-tuebin=
gen.de&gt;<br><b>To: </b>"Stephen Botzko" &lt;stephen.botzko@gmail.com&gt;,=
 "Michael Knappe" &lt;mknappe@juniper.net&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>codec@ietf.org<=
br><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:59:53 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re:=
 [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing<br><br>




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<div class=3D"WordSection1">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Me, too.</sp=
an></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">-----------------------------=
----------------------------------</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Interactive Communication Sys=
tems (ICS), University of T=C3=BCbingen </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US">Sand 13, 72076 T=C3=BCbingen,=
 Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Conso=
las; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni=
-tuebingen.de/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></spa=
n></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: &quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div style=3D"border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; b=
order-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-tex=
t-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">
codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>=
Stephen
Botzko<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Knappe<br>
<b>Cc:</b> codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing</s=
pan></p>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">I will be there, and =
would be
happy to join you on Monday evening.<br>
<br>
Stephen Botzko</p>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">mknappe@juniper.ne=
t</a>&gt; wrote:</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Stephan,<br>
<br>
This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?<br>
<br>
Mike</p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010<br>
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing<br>
<br>
I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the<br=
>
meeting.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mknappe@junipe=
r.net" target=3D"_blank">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to=
<br>
&gt;join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for<b=
r>
&gt;dinner and drinks. Email back if you=C2=B9re interested so I can tally =
a rough<br>
&gt;number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, an=
d<br>
&gt;I=C2=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the<=
br>
&gt;restaurant is decided.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;It=C2=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG<br>
&gt;participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mike<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;codec mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>codec mailing list<b=
r>codec@ietf.org<br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<br></div></=
body></html>
------=_Part_1136670_559150139.1288149409287--

From rchen@broadcom.com  Tue Oct 26 23:18:15 2010
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From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
Importance: low
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:17:59 -0700
Thread-Topic: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Cc: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test file ra=
ther than the pitch filtering? =20

I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not familiar wi=
th the ".sw" file extension.

I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other solo =
instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of improvement d=
epends on which file it is, as expected.

I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list still wa=
nt to continue to see our low-level technical discussions about the algorit=
hm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some people in the codec WG e=
mail list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.  Should we con=
sider moving such detailed codec algorithm development discussions off the =
WG mailing list and just between those of us who are interested or are dire=
ctly involved?

Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical development =
in emails)?

Thanks.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Hi Raymond,

I've been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what you got=
=20
earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well on=20
other files I'm trying. For example on this one=20
(http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw) there is simply too much pitch=20
doubling and I'm not actually sure it's possible to do a good job. Could=20
you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think one of=20
the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all=20
circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm in=20
cases where it cannot help.

Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important question=
=20
is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is it=20
necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male and=20
even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's only on=
=20
strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The main=20
reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there's a memory=
=20
footprint issue that's directly related. In any case, we'll need to=20
experiment as with anything else.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Hi Jean-Marc,
>
> See my in-line comments below.
>
> You wrote:
>> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that
>> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
>> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>
> [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial harmonics for
> a single sinusoid.  On the other hand, my concern is that if you derive
> the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the gain or
> taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech signals.
> To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best to use
> a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input signal
> without whitening.  Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper off
> the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3
> filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can probably have
> a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/speech
> with a harmonic structure.  The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch
> predictor.  The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector
> quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a spectral
> match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter
> approa ch.  We need to experiment to find out.  The BroadVoice codebooks
> for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech.  If we adopt this
> approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music signals
> in the training set.  If you are particularly concerned with a single
> sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors using just
> sinusoids.  If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could
> potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic time-domain
> waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure (like a
> single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.
>
>> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
>> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too.
>> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume
>> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
>> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
>> current CELT estimator.
>
> [Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that question
> soon.  My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow
> royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing certain
> components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensing
> terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thought
> and not an official Broadcom position yet.  I will talk to our lawyer
> and let him give the formal answer.
>
>> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but
>> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100
>> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between
>> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
>> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>
> [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has better noise
> masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for female
> speech than for male speech.  However, my previous work with pitch
> postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering
> alone could still give audible quality improvement to low-bit-rate-coded
> male speech.  Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is below
> 100 Hz? I don't remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfilter
> tests.  I agree it is worth testing.
>
>
> _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec




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From: Erik Norvell <erik.norvell@ericsson.com>
To: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>, Christian Hoene <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:39:06 +0200
Thread-Topic: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing
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I am also coming to Beijing and I'll be happy to join you for dinner.

BR,
Erik

________________________________
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K=
oen Vos
Sent: den 27 oktober 2010 05:17
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

+1
koen

________________________________
From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "Stephen Botzko" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@=
juniper.net>
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:59:53 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

Me, too.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene
Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen
Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532
http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of S=
tephen Botzko
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM
To: Michael Knappe
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

I will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.

Stephen Botzko
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net<mailto=
:mknappe@juniper.net>> wrote:
Stephan,

This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org> <codec-bounces@=
ietf.org<mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org>>
To: codec@ietf.org<mailto:codec@ietf.org> <codec@ietf.org<mailto:codec@ietf=
.org>>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
meeting.
Stephan


On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net<mailto:mknappe@=
juniper.net>> wrote:

>Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
>join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
>dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a roug=
h
>number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and
>I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
>restaurant is decided.
>
>It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
>participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>codec mailing list
>codec@ietf.org<mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org<mailto:codec@ietf.org>
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codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org<mailto:codec@ietf.org>
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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D177453706-27102010><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I am also coming to Beijing and I'll be happy to j=
oin you=20
for dinner.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D177453706-27102010><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D177453706-27102010><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>BR,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D177453706-27102010><FONT face=3DA=
rial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Erik</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> codec-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Koen Vos<BR><B>Sent:</B=
> den=20
27 oktober 2010 05:17<BR><B>To:</B> Christian Hoene<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
codec@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and dr=
inks=20
in Beijing<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman=
">+1=20
<BR>koen<BR><BR>
<HR>
<B>From: </B>"Christian Hoene" &lt;hoene@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
</B>"Stephen Botzko" &lt;stephen.botzko@gmail.com&gt;, "Michael Knappe"=20
&lt;mknappe@juniper.net&gt;<BR><B>Cc: </B>codec@ietf.org<BR><B>Sent:=20
</B>Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:59:53 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [codec] Mon=
day=20
codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing<BR><BR>
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<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sa=
ns-serif'">Me,=20
too.</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sa=
ns-serif'"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Consolas">-=
--------------------------------------------------------------</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Consolas">D=
r.-Ing.=20
Christian Hoene</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Consolas">I=
nteractive=20
Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Consolas">S=
and 13,=20
72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532 </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Consolas"><=
A=20
href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</A></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sa=
ns-serif'"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181=
,196,223) 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: m=
edium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>Stephen Botzko<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Michael Knappe<BR><B>Cc:</B> codec@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:=
</B>=20
Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">I will be there, and wou=
ld be=20
happy to join you on Monday evening.<BR><BR>Stephen Botzko</P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe &lt;<A=
=20
href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net" target=3D_blank>mknappe@juniper.net</A>=
&gt;=20
wrote:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Stephan,<BR><BR>This brings up a good point overall - =
who is=20
planning to be at IETF79?<BR><BR>Mike</P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D_blank>codec-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</A>=20
&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org"=20
target=3D_blank>codec-bounces@ietf.org</A>&gt;<BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D_blank>codec@ietf.org</A> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" target=3D_blank>codec@ietf.org</A>&gt;<BR>Se=
nt: Tue=20
Oct 26 14:57:35 2010<BR>Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and dri=
nks=20
in Beijing<BR><BR>I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good=20
progress for the<BR>meeting.<BR>Stephan<BR><BR><BR>On 10.26.2010 10:44 ,=20
"Michael Knappe" &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net"=20
target=3D_blank>mknappe@juniper.net</A>&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Hi everyone! =
I would=20
like to invite everyone as an informal activity to<BR>&gt;join me after the=
=20
Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for<BR>&gt;dinner and drink=
s.=20
Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a rough<BR>&gt;number for=
=20
reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and<BR>&gt;I=B9ll=
 send=20
out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the<BR>&gt;restaurant i=
s=20
decided.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fe=
llow=20
codec WG<BR>&gt;participants in an informal setting, hope to see you=20
there!<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Cheers,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Mike<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<B=
R>&gt;_______________________________________________<BR>&gt;codec=20
mailing list<BR>&gt;<A href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org"=20
target=3D_blank>codec@ietf.org</A><BR>&gt;<A=20
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec"=20
target=3D_blank>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</A><BR><BR><BR>=
_______________________________________________<BR>codec=20
mailing list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org"=20
target=3D_blank>codec@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec"=20
target=3D_blank>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</A><BR>________=
_______________________________________<BR>codec=20
mailing list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org"=20
target=3D_blank>codec@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec"=20
target=3D_blank>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</A></P></DIV></=
DIV></DIV>
<P=20
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P></DIV><BR>_____________________________________=
__________<BR>codec=20
mailing=20
list<BR>codec@ietf.org<BR>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<BR></=
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 06:14:26 -0400
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
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Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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I think it'd be good to have development discussions like this on the list.

Stephen Botzko

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen <
rchen@broadcom.com> wrote:

> Hi Jean-Marc,
>
> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test file
> rather than the pitch filtering?
>
> I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not familiar
> with the ".sw" file extension.
>
> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other solo
> instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of improvement
> depends on which file it is, as expected.
>
> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list still
> want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions about the
> algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some people in the
> codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.
>  Should we consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development
> discussions off the WG mailing list and just between those of us who are
> interested or are directly involved?
>
> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical development
> in emails)?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Raymond
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM
> To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
> Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org'
> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT
> codec
>
> Hi Raymond,
>
> I've been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what you got
> earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well on
> other files I'm trying. For example on this one
> (http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw) there is simply too much pitch
> doubling and I'm not actually sure it's possible to do a good job. Could
> you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think one of
> the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all
> circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm in
> cases where it cannot help.
>
> Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important question
> is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is it
> necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male and
> even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's only on
> strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The main
> reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there's a memory
> footprint issue that's directly related. In any case, we'll need to
> experiment as with anything else.
>
> Cheers,
>
>        Jean-Marc
>
> On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> > Hi Jean-Marc,
> >
> > See my in-line comments below.
> >
> > You wrote:
> >> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
> >> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned that
> >> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
> >> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
> >
> > [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial harmonics for
> > a single sinusoid.  On the other hand, my concern is that if you derive
> > the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the gain or
> > taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech signals.
> > To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best to use
> > a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input signal
> > without whitening.  Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper off
> > the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3
> > filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can probably have
> > a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/speech
> > with a harmonic structure.  The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch
> > predictor.  The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector
> > quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a spectral
> > match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter
> > approa ch.  We need to experiment to find out.  The BroadVoice codebooks
> > for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech.  If we adopt this
> > approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music signals
> > in the training set.  If you are particularly concerned with a single
> > sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors using just
> > sinusoids.  If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could
> > potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic time-domain
> > waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure (like a
> > single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.
> >
> >> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
> >> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low complexity too.
> >> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I assume
> >> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
> >> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
> >> current CELT estimator.
> >
> > [Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that question
> > soon.  My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow
> > royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing certain
> > components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensing
> > terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thought
> > and not an official Broadcom position yet.  I will talk to our lawyer
> > and let him give the formal answer.
> >
> >> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but
> >> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go below 100
> >> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking between
> >> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
> >> post-filter. Again worth testing.
> >
> > [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has better noise
> > masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for female
> > speech than for male speech.  However, my previous work with pitch
> > postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering
> > alone could still give audible quality improvement to low-bit-rate-coded
> > male speech.  Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is below
> > 100 Hz? I don't remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfilter
> > tests.  I agree it is worth testing.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
> > codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>

--001636c5991b8aeba10493967d19
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think it&#39;d be good to have development discussions like this on the l=
ist.<br><br>Stephen Botzko<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 27=
, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rchen@broadcom.com">rchen@broadcom.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Jean-Marc,<br>
<br>
Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test file ra=
ther than the pitch filtering?<br>
<br>
I will take a look at that file. =A0Is that a raw file? =A0I am not familia=
r with the &quot;.sw&quot; file extension.<br>
<br>
I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other solo =
instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of improvement d=
epends on which file it is, as expected.<br>
<br>
I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list still wa=
nt to continue to see our low-level technical discussions about the algorit=
hm development in the reflector. =A0I wonder if some people in the codec WG=
 email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails. =A0Should we=
 consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development discussions off =
the WG mailing list and just between those of us who are interested or are =
directly involved?<br>

<br>
Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical development =
in emails)?<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Raymond<br>
</font><div class=3D"im"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com=
">jean-marc.valin@octasic.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM<br>
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@i=
etf.org">codec@ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec<br>
<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">Hi Raymond,<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what you=
 got<br>
earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn&#39;t work as well on<=
br>
other files I&#39;m trying. For example on this one<br>
(<a href=3D"http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw</a>) there is simply too much pitch<b=
r>
doubling and I&#39;m not actually sure it&#39;s possible to do a good job. =
Could<br>
you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think one of<b=
r>
the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all<br>
circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm in<br=
>
cases where it cannot help.<br>
<br>
Regarding the periods we&#39;d need to support, I think the important quest=
ion<br>
is not that much &quot;on what range does it help&quot;, but &quot;on what =
range is it<br>
necessary&quot;. From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male an=
d<br>
even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It&#39;s onl=
y on<br>
strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The main<br=
>
reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there&#39;s a mem=
ory<br>
footprint issue that&#39;s directly related. In any case, we&#39;ll need to=
<br>
experiment as with anything else.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Jean-Marc<br>
<br>
On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Jean-Marc,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; See my in-line comments below.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; My concern wasn&#39;t that much about the period, but the gain. I&=
#39;ll<br>
&gt;&gt; probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned t=
hat<br>
&gt;&gt; a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the com=
b<br>
&gt;&gt; filter to be turned on with a high gain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial harmonics fo=
r<br>
&gt; a single sinusoid. =A0On the other hand, my concern is that if you der=
ive<br>
&gt; the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the gain =
or<br>
&gt; taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech signals.=
<br>
&gt; To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best to u=
se<br>
&gt; a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input sign=
al<br>
&gt; without whitening. =A0Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper of=
f<br>
&gt; the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3<br>
&gt; filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can probably ha=
ve<br>
&gt; a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/speech<b=
r>
&gt; with a harmonic structure. =A0The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch<=
br>
&gt; predictor. =A0The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector<br>
&gt; quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a spectral=
<br>
&gt; match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter<br>
&gt; approa ch. =A0We need to experiment to find out. =A0The BroadVoice cod=
ebooks<br>
&gt; for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech. =A0If we adopt this<=
br>
&gt; approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music signa=
ls<br>
&gt; in the training set. =A0If you are particularly concerned with a singl=
e<br>
&gt; sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors using ju=
st<br>
&gt; sinusoids. =A0If this doesn&#39;t work well, in the worst case, we cou=
ld<br>
&gt; potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic time-domai=
n<br>
&gt; waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure (like=
 a<br>
&gt; single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it&=
#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt; very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it&#39;s fairly low complex=
ity too.<br>
&gt;&gt; It&#39;s part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I=
 assume<br>
&gt;&gt; that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified B=
SD<br>
&gt;&gt; license (it&#39;s currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead o=
f the<br>
&gt;&gt; current CELT estimator.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [Raymond]: Broadcom&#39;s legal counsel will formally answer that ques=
tion<br>
&gt; soon. =A0My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow<=
br>
&gt; royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing certai=
n<br>
&gt; components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF&#39;s licensi=
ng<br>
&gt; terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thought<=
br>
&gt; and not an official Broadcom position yet. =A0I will talk to our lawye=
r<br>
&gt; and let him give the formal answer.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, bu=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; my intuition here is that it&#39;s probably not necessary to go be=
low 100<br>
&gt;&gt; Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking bet=
ween<br>
&gt;&gt; the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a<br=
>
&gt;&gt; post-filter. Again worth testing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has better noi=
se<br>
&gt; masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for fema=
le<br>
&gt; speech than for male speech. =A0However, my previous work with pitch<b=
r>
&gt; postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering<br=
>
&gt; alone could still give audible quality improvement to low-bit-rate-cod=
ed<br>
&gt; male speech. =A0Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is be=
low<br>
&gt; 100 Hz? I don&#39;t remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfil=
ter<br>
&gt; tests. =A0I agree it is worth testing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________ codec mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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I will also be there, and would like to join for dinner and drinks.



/Karsten



From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Erik Norvell
Sent: den 27 oktober 2010 08:39
To: Koen Vos; Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing



I am also coming to Beijing and I'll be happy to join you for dinner.



BR,

Erik



  _____

From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Koen Vos
Sent: den 27 oktober 2010 05:17
To: Christian Hoene
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

+1
koen

  _____

From: "Christian Hoene" <hoene@uni-tuebingen.de>
To: "Stephen Botzko" <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>, "Michael Knappe"
<mknappe@juniper.net>
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:59:53 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing




Me, too.



---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene

Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of T=FCbingen

Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 2970532

http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/



From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Stephen Botzko
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM
To: Michael Knappe
Cc: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing



I will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.

Stephen Botzko

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Michael Knappe <mknappe@juniper.net>
wrote:

Stephan,

This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at IETF79?

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org <codec-bounces@ietf.org>
To: codec@ietf.org <codec@ietf.org>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing

I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for the
meeting.
Stephan


On 10.26.2010 10:44 , "Michael Knappe" <mknappe@juniper.net> wrote:

>Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity to
>join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant for
>dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally a ro=
ugh
>number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, and
>I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once the
>restaurant is decided.
>
>It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG
>participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>codec mailing list
>codec@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec




_______________________________________________
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codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I will also be there, and would like to join for dinner =
and
drinks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>/Karsten<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> codec-bounces@ietf.org
[mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Erik Norvell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 27 oktober 2010 08:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Koen Vos; Christian Hoene<br>
<b>Cc:</b> codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in =
Beijing<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>I am also coming to Beijing and I'll be happy to join you =
for
dinner.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>BR,</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Erik</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Koen
Vos<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 27 oktober 2010 05:17<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Hoene<br>
<b>Cc:</b> codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in =
Beijing</span><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>+1 <br>
koen<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'color:black'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: =
</span></b><span
style=3D'color:black'>&quot;Christian Hoene&quot; =
&lt;hoene@uni-tuebingen.de&gt;<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Stephen Botzko&quot; &lt;stephen.botzko@gmail.com&gt;,
&quot;Michael Knappe&quot; &lt;mknappe@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, October 26, 2010 6:59:53 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in =
Beijing<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Me, too.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>----------------------------------------------------------=
-----</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Dr.-Ing. Christian Hoene</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Interactive Communication Systems (ICS), University of =
T=FCbingen </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Sand 13, 72076 T=FCbingen, Germany, Phone +49 7071 =
2970532 </span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'><a href=3D"http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.net.uni-tuebingen.de/</a></span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] =
<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Stephen Botzko<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 26, 2010 9:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Knappe<br>
<b>Cc:</b> codec@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in =
Beijing</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>I
will be there, and would be happy to join you on Monday evening.<br>
<br>
Stephen Botzko<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at =
3:12 PM,
Michael Knappe &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net" =
target=3D"_blank">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'>Stephan,<br>
<br>
This brings up a good point overall - who is planning to be at =
IETF79?<br>
<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: <a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Tue Oct 26 14:57:35 2010<br>
Subject: Re: [codec] Monday codec WG dinner and drinks in Beijing<br>
<br>
I'll not be in China, but I wish you good luck and good progress for =
the<br>
meeting.<br>
Stephan<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10.26.2010 10:44 , &quot;Michael Knappe&quot; &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:mknappe@juniper.net" =
target=3D"_blank">mknappe@juniper.net</a>&gt;
wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi everyone! I would like to invite everyone as an informal activity =
to<br>
&gt;join me after the Monday technical plenary at a nearby restaurant =
for<br>
&gt;dinner and drinks. Email back if you=B9re interested so I can tally =
a rough<br>
&gt;number for reservations. Suggestions for the restaurant are welcome, =
and<br>
&gt;I=B9ll send out logistics for meeting up after the plenary once =
the<br>
&gt;restaurant is decided.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;It=B9s a great opportunity to meet and chat with fellow codec WG<br>
&gt;participants in an informal setting, hope to see you there!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Mike<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;codec mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:codec@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">codec@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec</a><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:black'><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
codec mailing list<br>
codec@ietf.org<br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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From jean-marc.valin@octasic.com  Wed Oct 27 06:13:41 2010
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Cc: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test file
> rather than the pitch filtering?

The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable and 
consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether it's 
possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a robust 
enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors in the 
estimation. I'm still working on both.

> I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not familiar
> with the ".sw" file extension.

That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just the 
sox program's extension for "signed word".

> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other
> solo instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of
> improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.

Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it works 
on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or non-harmonic 
signals. As long as we're in a situation where it improves on a subset of 
the samples while not degrading the others, I'm happy.

> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list still
> want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions about the
> algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some people in the
> codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.
> Should we consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development
> discussions off the WG mailing list and just between those of us who are
> interested or are directly involved?
>
> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
> development in emails)?

I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF lists 
are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps improve the 
SNR :-)

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc


From jdrosen@jdrosen.net  Wed Oct 27 14:12:10 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT	codec
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Absolutely, these discussions should happen here. This working group is 
about producing this codec, and technical discussions about that 
deliverable belong here.

-Jonathan R.
(with WG chair hat on)

On 10/27/2010 6:14 AM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
> I think it'd be good to have development discussions like this on the list.
>
> Stephen Botzko
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
> <rchen@broadcom.com <mailto:rchen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Jean-Marc,
>
>     Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
>     file rather than the pitch filtering?
>
>     I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not
>     familiar with the ".sw" file extension.
>
>     I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the
>     other solo instrument files that I am working on, although the
>     degree of improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.
>
>     I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
>     still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
>     about the algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some
>     people in the codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded
>     with such emails.  Should we consider moving such detailed codec
>     algorithm development discussions off the WG mailing list and just
>     between those of us who are interested or are directly involved?
>
>     Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
>     development in emails)?
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     Raymond
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com
>     <mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>]
>     Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM
>     To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>     Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>'
>     Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1
>     CELT codec
>
>     Hi Raymond,
>
>     I've been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what
>     you got
>     earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well on
>     other files I'm trying. For example on this one
>     (http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw) there is simply too much
>     pitch
>     doubling and I'm not actually sure it's possible to do a good job. Could
>     you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think
>     one of
>     the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all
>     circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm in
>     cases where it cannot help.
>
>     Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important
>     question
>     is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is it
>     necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male and
>     even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's
>     only on
>     strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The main
>     reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there's a
>     memory
>     footprint issue that's directly related. In any case, we'll need to
>     experiment as with anything else.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>             Jean-Marc
>
>     On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>      > Hi Jean-Marc,
>      >
>      > See my in-line comments below.
>      >
>      > You wrote:
>      >> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>      >> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned
>     that
>      >> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
>      >> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>      >
>      > [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial
>     harmonics for
>      > a single sinusoid.  On the other hand, my concern is that if you
>     derive
>      > the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the
>     gain or
>      > taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech
>     signals.
>      > To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best
>     to use
>      > a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input
>     signal
>      > without whitening.  Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper off
>      > the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3
>      > filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can
>     probably have
>      > a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/speech
>      > with a harmonic structure.  The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch
>      > predictor.  The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector
>      > quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a
>     spectral
>      > match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter
>      > approa ch.  We need to experiment to find out.  The BroadVoice
>     codebooks
>      > for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech.  If we adopt this
>      > approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music
>     signals
>      > in the training set.  If you are particularly concerned with a single
>      > sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors
>     using just
>      > sinusoids.  If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could
>      > potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic
>     time-domain
>      > waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure
>     (like a
>      > single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.
>      >
>      >> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
>      >> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low
>     complexity too.
>      >> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I
>     assume
>      >> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
>      >> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
>      >> current CELT estimator.
>      >
>      > [Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that
>     question
>      > soon.  My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow
>      > royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing
>     certain
>      > components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensing
>      > terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thought
>      > and not an official Broadcom position yet.  I will talk to our lawyer
>      > and let him give the formal answer.
>      >
>      >> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but
>      >> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go
>     below 100
>      >> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking
>     between
>      >> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
>      >> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>      >
>      > [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has
>     better noise
>      > masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for
>     female
>      > speech than for male speech.  However, my previous work with pitch
>      > postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering
>      > alone could still give audible quality improvement to
>     low-bit-rate-coded
>      > male speech.  Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is
>     below
>      > 100 Hz? I don't remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfilter
>      > tests.  I agree it is worth testing.
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
>      > codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     codec mailing list
>     codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
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-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
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From jdrosen@jdrosen.net  Wed Oct 27 14:19:52 2010
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:21:43 -0400
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [codec] Opus codec licensing
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The Skype IPR declaration uses standard in the lower-case sense - any 
standards track RFC. It does not mean that it only applies to a full 
standard protocol.

For those not familiar - IETF standards track documents can be in one of 
three categories - proposed standard, draft standard, and standard. A 
specification, in theory progresses through these three phases in that 
order, each with a different RFC assigned. In practice, the vast 
majority of standards-track RFCs are proposed standard, and never make 
it beyond that stage.

Thanks,
Jonathan R.

On 10/24/2010 3:09 AM, James Cloos wrote:
>>>>>> "JV" == Jean-Marc Valin<jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>  writes:
>
> JV>  Opus is available under the BSD license. As for patents, Skype has
> JV>  pledged to make them available royalty-free once the codec is
> JV>  accepted as an IETF standard.
>
> As a Standard?  Or just published as an standards-track RFC?
>
> That is a /huge/ difference, time-wise.
>
> -JimC

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) 465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net



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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1	CELT	codec
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For those curious about what this is all about. This is the frequency 
response of the post-filter for a certain pitch value:

http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/postfilter.png

Note that the roll-off is due to the fact that I've implemented a (fixed) 
3-tap filter to prevent HF artefacts. I'll post some samples a bit later.

	Jean-Marc

On 10-10-27 05:13 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> Absolutely, these discussions should happen here. This working group is
> about producing this codec, and technical discussions about that
> deliverable belong here.
>
> -Jonathan R.
> (with WG chair hat on)
>
> On 10/27/2010 6:14 AM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
>> I think it'd be good to have development discussions like this on the
>> list.
>>
>> Stephen Botzko
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>> <rchen@broadcom.com <mailto:rchen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jean-Marc,
>>
>> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
>> file rather than the pitch filtering?
>>
>> I will take a look at that file. Is that a raw file? I am not
>> familiar with the ".sw" file extension.
>>
>> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the
>> other solo instrument files that I am working on, although the
>> degree of improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.
>>
>> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
>> still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
>> about the algorithm development in the reflector. I wonder if some
>> people in the codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded
>> with such emails. Should we consider moving such detailed codec
>> algorithm development discussions off the WG mailing list and just
>> between those of us who are interested or are directly involved?
>>
>> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
>> development in emails)?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Raymond
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com
>> <mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>]
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM
>> To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>> Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>'
>> Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1
>> CELT codec
>>
>> Hi Raymond,
>>
>> I've been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what
>> you got
>> earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well on
>> other files I'm trying. For example on this one
>> (http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw) there is simply too much
>> pitch
>> doubling and I'm not actually sure it's possible to do a good job. Could
>> you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think
>> one of
>> the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all
>> circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm in
>> cases where it cannot help.
>>
>> Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important
>> question
>> is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is it
>> necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male and
>> even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's
>> only on
>> strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The main
>> reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there's a
>> memory
>> footprint issue that's directly related. In any case, we'll need to
>> experiment as with anything else.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jean-Marc
>>
>> On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> > Hi Jean-Marc,
>> >
>> > See my in-line comments below.
>> >
>> > You wrote:
>> >> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>> >> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned
>> that
>> >> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the comb
>> >> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>> >
>> > [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial
>> harmonics for
>> > a single sinusoid. On the other hand, my concern is that if you
>> derive
>> > the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the
>> gain or
>> > taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech
>> signals.
>> > To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best
>> to use
>> > a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input
>> signal
>> > without whitening. Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper off
>> > the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3
>> > filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can
>> probably have
>> > a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/speech
>> > with a harmonic structure. The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitch
>> > predictor. The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector
>> > quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a
>> spectral
>> > match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter
>> > approa ch. We need to experiment to find out. The BroadVoice
>> codebooks
>> > for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech. If we adopt this
>> > approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music
>> signals
>> > in the training set. If you are particularly concerned with a single
>> > sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors
>> using just
>> > sinusoids. If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could
>> > potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic
>> time-domain
>> > waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure
>> (like a
>> > single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly.
>> >
>> >> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it's
>> >> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low
>> complexity too.
>> >> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I
>> assume
>> >> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified BSD
>> >> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of the
>> >> current CELT estimator.
>> >
>> > [Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that
>> question
>> > soon. My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allow
>> > royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing
>> certain
>> > components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensing
>> > terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thought
>> > and not an official Broadcom position yet. I will talk to our lawyer
>> > and let him give the formal answer.
>> >
>> >> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, but
>> >> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go
>> below 100
>> >> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking
>> between
>> >> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
>> >> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>> >
>> > [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has
>> better noise
>> > masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for
>> female
>> > speech than for male speech. However, my previous work with pitch
>> > postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfiltering
>> > alone could still give audible quality improvement to
>> low-bit-rate-coded
>> > male speech. Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is
>> below
>> > 100 Hz? I don't remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfilter
>> > tests. I agree it is worth testing.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
>> > codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> codec mailing list
>> codec@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
> --
> Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. SkypeID: jdrosen
> Chief Technology Strategist Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
> Skype SkypeIn: +1 (408) 465-0361
> jdrosen@skype.net http://www.skype.com
> jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net
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>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT	codec
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The need for reliable and consistent pitch estimates is there for SILK as well: SILK uses pitch lags for both harmonic noise shaping and prediction, using the same kind of 3-tap LTP pre/post filter.  

However, the pitch estimator may have different estimation sensitivites for audio and speech signals.  So it may be useful to play around with these settings:
  PE_FLP_SHORTLAG_BIAS  /* bias towards shorter pitch lags */
  PE_FLP_PREVLAG_BIAS   /* bias towards the lag of the previous frame */
It would be trivial to make these part of the state, so that CELT and SILK can have different bias values.  

SILK's pitch estimator is pretty simple:
- partial LPC prewhitening, where the LPC order (6...16) depends on the complexity setting.
- 4x downsampled domain: full correlation search, keep a few lags with high correlation
- 2x downsampled domain: fine search with bias towards the previous pitch lag and short lags, keep winner
- input domain: fine search around winner, allowing gradual pitch variations over subframes.
I'm sure it can be improved, which would probably benefit CELT and SILK.

best,
koen.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>, "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:13:07 AM
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec

Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
> file rather than the pitch filtering?

The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable and
consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether it's
possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a robust
enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors in the
estimation. I'm still working on both.

> I will take a look at that file. Is that a raw file? I am not familiar
> with the ".sw" file extension.

That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just the
sox program's extension for "signed word".

> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other
> solo instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of
> improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.

Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it
works on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or
non-harmonic signals. As long as we're in a situation where it improves
on a subset of
the samples while not degrading the others, I'm happy.

> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
> still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
> about the
> algorithm development in the reflector. I wonder if some people in the
> codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.
> Should we consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development
> discussions off the WG mailing list and just between those of us who
> are interested or are directly involved?
>
> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
> development in emails)?

I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF
lists are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps
improve the
SNR :-)

Cheers,

Jean-Marc

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From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the instruction.  Will do.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of J=
onathan Rosenberg
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:14 PM
To: codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Absolutely, these discussions should happen here. This working group is=20
about producing this codec, and technical discussions about that=20
deliverable belong here.

-Jonathan R.
(with WG chair hat on)

On 10/27/2010 6:14 AM, Stephen Botzko wrote:
> I think it'd be good to have development discussions like this on the lis=
t.
>
> Stephen Botzko
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
> <rchen@broadcom.com <mailto:rchen@broadcom.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Jean-Marc,
>
>     Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
>     file rather than the pitch filtering?
>
>     I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not
>     familiar with the ".sw" file extension.
>
>     I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the
>     other solo instrument files that I am working on, although the
>     degree of improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.
>
>     I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
>     still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
>     about the algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some
>     people in the codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded
>     with such emails.  Should we consider moving such detailed codec
>     algorithm development discussions off the WG mailing list and just
>     between those of us who are interested or are directly involved?
>
>     Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
>     development in emails)?
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     Raymond
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com
>     <mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>]
>     Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM
>     To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
>     Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>'
>     Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1
>     CELT codec
>
>     Hi Raymond,
>
>     I've been able to reproduce results that are mostly similar to what
>     you got
>     earlier on the trumpet file. Unfortunately, it doesn't work as well o=
n
>     other files I'm trying. For example on this one
>     (http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/s02a_102.sw) there is simply too much
>     pitch
>     doubling and I'm not actually sure it's possible to do a good job. Co=
uld
>     you try with your setup and see if you can improve things. I think
>     one of
>     the tricky thing with the postfilter will be to make it work in all
>     circumstances and -- most importantly -- prevent it from causing harm=
 in
>     cases where it cannot help.
>
>     Regarding the periods we'd need to support, I think the important
>     question
>     is not that much "on what range does it help", but "on what range is =
it
>     necessary". From what I observed, CELT copes well with regular male a=
nd
>     even female speech and even the vega sample tends to sound OK. It's
>     only on
>     strongly tonal samples with higher pitches that problems occur. The m=
ain
>     reason I want to limit the maximum period allowed is that there's a
>     memory
>     footprint issue that's directly related. In any case, we'll need to
>     experiment as with anything else.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>             Jean-Marc
>
>     On 10-10-26 02:40 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>      > Hi Jean-Marc,
>      >
>      > See my in-line comments below.
>      >
>      > You wrote:
>      >> My concern wasn't that much about the period, but the gain. I'll
>      >> probably have to try both approaches, but I was mainly concerned
>     that
>      >> a non-harmonic signal with one strong sinusoid could cause the co=
mb
>      >> filter to be turned on with a high gain.
>      >
>      > [Raymond]: I see your concern with introducing artificial
>     harmonics for
>      > a single sinusoid.  On the other hand, my concern is that if you
>     derive
>      > the gain (or taps) based on partially whitened input signal, the
>     gain or
>      > taps may be too small for legitimate periodic music or speech
>     signals.
>      > To address both your and my concerns, I think it is probably best
>     to use
>      > a 3-tap filter where the taps are derived directly from the input
>     signal
>      > without whitening.  Since a 3-tap filter has the ability to taper =
off
>      > the degree of comb filtering with increasing frequency, a set of 3
>      > filter taps that is chosen to match the input spectrum can
>     probably have
>      > a reasonable spectral match for either a single tone or music/spee=
ch
>      > with a harmonic structure.  The BroadVoice codecs use a 3-tap pitc=
h
>      > predictor.  The way those 3 taps are jointly searched and vector
>      > quantized might provide a way to quantize the 3 taps and do a
>     spectral
>      > match at the same time for our current pitch prefilter/postfilter
>      > approa ch.  We need to experiment to find out.  The BroadVoice
>     codebooks
>      > for the 3 taps were designed using mainly speech.  If we adopt thi=
s
>      > approach, we need to redesign the codebook with sufficient music
>     signals
>      > in the training set.  If you are particularly concerned with a sin=
gle
>      > sinusoid, we may want to train one or a few 3-tap codevectors
>     using just
>      > sinusoids.  If this doesn't work well, in the worst case, we could
>      > potentially design a detector that detect (nearly) periodic
>     time-domain
>      > waveform that does not have a spectrum with a harmonic structure
>     (like a
>      > single sinusoid) and turn off the prefilter/postfilter accordingly=
.
>      >
>      >> CELT currently has a pitch predictor used for PLC, but I doubt it=
's
>      >> very good for this as it is now. OTOH, it's fairly low
>     complexity too.
>      >> It's part of my plans to compare it with the one in BV16/32. I
>     assume
>      >> that Broadcom would be willing to relicense it to the simplified =
BSD
>      >> license (it's currently LGPL) if we wanted to use it instead of t=
he
>      >> current CELT estimator.
>      >
>      > [Raymond]: Broadcom's legal counsel will formally answer that
>     question
>      > soon.  My assumption is that if we were previously willing to allo=
w
>      > royalty-free use of BroadVoice in the IETF codec, then allowing
>     certain
>      > components of it to be used in the IETF codec under IETF's licensi=
ng
>      > terms is probably not a problem, but this is just my personal thou=
ght
>      > and not an official Broadcom position yet.  I will talk to our law=
yer
>      > and let him give the formal answer.
>      >
>      >> The pitch range is another thing that needs experimenting with, b=
ut
>      >> my intuition here is that it's probably not necessary to go
>     below 100
>      >> Hz because for these very low pitches, there is enough masking
>     between
>      >> the harmonics to make the coding noise inaudible even without a
>      >> post-filter. Again worth testing.
>      >
>      > [Raymond]: I agree that lower pitch frequency generally has
>     better noise
>      > masking, so time-domain predictive codecs often sound noisier for
>     female
>      > speech than for male speech.  However, my previous work with pitch
>      > postfiltering during my Ph.D. study showed that pitch postfilterin=
g
>      > alone could still give audible quality improvement to
>     low-bit-rate-coded
>      > male speech.  Does it improve quality when the pitch frequency is
>     below
>      > 100 Hz? I don't remember the pitch frequencies of my pitch postfil=
ter
>      > tests.  I agree it is worth testing.
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________ codec mailing list
>      > codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     codec mailing list
>     codec@ietf.org <mailto:codec@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> codec mailing list
> codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

--=20
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   SkypeID: jdrosen
Chief Technology Strategist                    Mobile: +1 (732) 766-2496
Skype                                          SkypeIn: +1 (408) 465-0361
jdrosen@skype.net                              http://www.skype.com
jdrosen@jdrosen.net                            http://www.jdrosen.net


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Cc: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Thanks for your comments.  If the problem is with the pitch estimation, the=
 good thing is that it does not affect the bit-stream format if we just use=
 the integer pitch period within a certain range.  Even after the bit-strea=
m format is frozen, the pitch estimation accuracy can still be improved lat=
er as it only affects the encoder side. Therefore, even if we can't get a v=
ery reliable pitch estimator for music before the IETF 79 meeting, it doesn=
't necessarily need to hold up the bit-stream definition.

Hence, I think the pitch estimation accuracy is not the most urgent issue. =
 I think the most urgent issue is to design the pitch filter tap(s) codeboo=
k entries so they all correspond to stable pitch filters and there are enou=
gh variety of filter tap sets in the codebook so they allow us to shape the=
 envelope of the frequency response of the pitch filters in a wide range fr=
om fully periodic (no envelope shaping) to something that effectively turns=
 off the pitch filter.  To finalize the bit-stream, we do need to finalize =
such a filter tap codebook.

I remember I have seen some papers on pitch estimation techniques for music=
 signals published at IEEE ICASSP conferences, and from the pitch contour f=
igures in the papers, they seem to work well.  I think we can first try to =
improve the CELT PLC pitch estimator, BroadVoice pitch estimator, or SILK p=
itch estimator to see if we can get satisfactory pitch estimation performan=
ce for both speech and music with low enough complexity.  If not, we can ch=
eck those music pitch estimation papers out to see what they have there.  W=
e can do such pitch estimator improvement after IETF 79 if we can't finish =
it before then.

Raymond

P.S. It just so happens that this week I am completely booked solid during =
the weekdays -- a 3.5-day off-site conference followed by a 1.5-day meeting=
, so I don't have much time to work on this method this week.  This is very=
 rare for me.  Sorry about that.  Next week I expect to have more time to w=
ork on this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:13 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test file
> rather than the pitch filtering?

The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable and=20
consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether it's=20
possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a robust=20
enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors in the=20
estimation. I'm still working on both.

> I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not familiar
> with the ".sw" file extension.

That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just the=20
sox program's extension for "signed word".

> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other
> solo instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of
> improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.

Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it works=
=20
on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or non-harmonic=20
signals. As long as we're in a situation where it improves on a subset of=20
the samples while not degrading the others, I'm happy.

> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list still
> want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions about the
> algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some people in the
> codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.
> Should we consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development
> discussions off the WG mailing list and just between those of us who are
> interested or are directly involved?
>
> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
> development in emails)?

I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF lists=20
are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps improve the=
=20
SNR :-)

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc




From rchen@broadcom.com  Wed Oct 27 23:24:39 2010
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To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
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Cc: "'codec@ietf.org'" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Jean-Marc,

I forgot to comment:=20
As long as the filter tap codebook adequately covers the full possible rang=
e from purely periodic (no envelope shaping) to effectively turning off the=
 pitch filter, then even if we can't quite get a perfect pitch estimator or=
 pitch filter tap determination method that we are completely happy with be=
fore IETF 79 meeting, we can improve them later even after the possible pit=
ch periods and possible pitch filter tap sets are determined.  The improved=
 pitch estimator and pitch filter tap determination method developed later =
will improve the audio quality without changing the bit-stream format.  The=
y may increase the complexity of the encoder side, but the decoder side rem=
ains low complexity and unchanged. And who knows, maybe with sufficient res=
earch, it is possible that the pitch period and pitch filter tap determinat=
ion can both be improved while reducing the encoder side complexity at the =
same time.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
aymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 11:10 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin
Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'; Jean-Marc Valin
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec
Importance: Low

Hi Jean-Marc,

Thanks for your comments.  If the problem is with the pitch estimation, the=
 good thing is that it does not affect the bit-stream format if we just use=
 the integer pitch period within a certain range.  Even after the bit-strea=
m format is frozen, the pitch estimation accuracy can still be improved lat=
er as it only affects the encoder side. Therefore, even if we can't get a v=
ery reliable pitch estimator for music before the IETF 79 meeting, it doesn=
't necessarily need to hold up the bit-stream definition.

Hence, I think the pitch estimation accuracy is not the most urgent issue. =
 I think the most urgent issue is to design the pitch filter tap(s) codeboo=
k entries so they all correspond to stable pitch filters and there are enou=
gh variety of filter tap sets in the codebook so they allow us to shape the=
 envelope of the frequency response of the pitch filters in a wide range fr=
om fully periodic (no envelope shaping) to something that effectively turns=
 off the pitch filter.  To finalize the bit-stream, we do need to finalize =
such a filter tap codebook.

I remember I have seen some papers on pitch estimation techniques for music=
 signals published at IEEE ICASSP conferences, and from the pitch contour f=
igures in the papers, they seem to work well.  I think we can first try to =
improve the CELT PLC pitch estimator, BroadVoice pitch estimator, or SILK p=
itch estimator to see if we can get satisfactory pitch estimation performan=
ce for both speech and music with low enough complexity.  If not, we can ch=
eck those music pitch estimation papers out to see what they have there.  W=
e can do such pitch estimator improvement after IETF 79 if we can't finish =
it before then.

Raymond

P.S. It just so happens that this week I am completely booked solid during =
the weekdays -- a 3.5-day off-site conference followed by a 1.5-day meeting=
, so I don't have much time to work on this method this week.  This is very=
 rare for me.  Sorry about that.  Next week I expect to have more time to w=
ork on this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:13 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test file
> rather than the pitch filtering?

The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable and=20
consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether it's=20
possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a robust=20
enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors in the=20
estimation. I'm still working on both.

> I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not familiar
> with the ".sw" file extension.

That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just the=20
sox program's extension for "signed word".

> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other
> solo instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of
> improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.

Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it works=
=20
on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or non-harmonic=20
signals. As long as we're in a situation where it improves on a subset of=20
the samples while not degrading the others, I'm happy.

> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list still
> want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions about the
> algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some people in the
> codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.
> Should we consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development
> discussions off the WG mailing list and just between those of us who are
> interested or are directly involved?
>
> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
> development in emails)?

I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF lists=20
are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps improve the=
=20
SNR :-)

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc



_______________________________________________
codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec



From koen.vos@skype.net  Thu Oct 28 01:51:30 2010
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From: Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net>
To: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
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Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>, Jean-Marc Valin <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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I guess pitch filtering hasn't been used for music before because very little music is actually anywhere near harmonic.  Most tonal music contains chords: multiple tones with different fundamental frequencies.  For these, pitch filtering easily causes more harm than anything else.  But it is true that harmonic sounds like the harpsichord are among the trickiest to code.  

An interesting aspect of string-generated tones is that their harmonic frequencies are not exactly integer multiples, because of the stiffness of the string: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity
I remember from previous experiments with pitch filters that for signals like the harpsichord this effect is quite strong.  Fortunately it's possible to create a pitch filter with similarly "inharmonic" harmonics: just add an allpass filter to the delay line.  The allpass filter creates a shorter delay for higher frequencies, which moves the higher harmonics up a bit.  The allpass coefficient can be fairly easily estimated with for instance a gradient descent algorithm, or even by just trying out a few values and chosing the one with the highest prediction gain.  Might be worth an experiment.  The downside is of course that the inharmonicity coefficient will need to be coded and transmitted.

Another idea is to use a slighlty lower gain in the pitch prefilter than in the postfilter.  This will make the decoder emphasize the harmonics a bit, which creates an effect similar to a traditional harmonic postfilter - for free.  This may work especially well for speech coded at below-transparent quality.

koen.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen" <rchen@broadcom.com>
To: "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@octasic.com>
Cc: "codec@ietf.org" <codec@ietf.org>, "Jean-Marc Valin" <jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 11:26:12 PM
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec

Jean-Marc,

I forgot to comment:
As long as the filter tap codebook adequately covers the full possible
range from purely periodic (no envelope shaping) to effectively turning
off the pitch filter, then even if we can't quite get a perfect pitch
estimator or pitch filter tap determination method that we are
completely happy with before IETF 79 meeting, we can improve them later
even after the possible pitch periods and possible pitch filter tap sets
are determined. The improved pitch estimator and pitch filter tap
determination method developed later will improve the audio quality
without changing the bit-stream format. They may increase the complexity
of the encoder side, but the decoder side remains low complexity and
unchanged. And who knows, maybe with sufficient research, it is possible
that the pitch period and pitch filter tap determination can both be
improved while reducing the encoder side complexity at the same time.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 11:10 PM
To: Jean-Marc Valin
Cc: 'codec@ietf.org'; Jean-Marc Valin
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT
codec
Importance: Low

Hi Jean-Marc,

Thanks for your comments. If the problem is with the pitch estimation,
the good thing is that it does not affect the bit-stream format if we
just use the integer pitch period within a certain range. Even after the
bit-stream format is frozen, the pitch estimation accuracy can still be
improved later as it only affects the encoder side. Therefore, even if
we can't get a very reliable pitch estimator for music before the IETF
79 meeting, it doesn't necessarily need to hold up the bit-stream
definition.

Hence, I think the pitch estimation accuracy is not the most urgent
issue. I think the most urgent issue is to design the pitch filter
tap(s) codebook entries so they all correspond to stable pitch filters
and there are enough variety of filter tap sets in the codebook so they
allow us to shape the envelope of the frequency response of the pitch
filters in a wide range from fully periodic (no envelope shaping) to
something that effectively turns off the pitch filter. To finalize the
bit-stream, we do need to finalize such a filter tap codebook.

I remember I have seen some papers on pitch estimation techniques for
music signals published at IEEE ICASSP conferences, and from the pitch
contour figures in the papers, they seem to work well. I think we can
first try to improve the CELT PLC pitch estimator, BroadVoice pitch
estimator, or SILK pitch estimator to see if we can get satisfactory
pitch estimation performance for both speech and music with low enough
complexity. If not, we can check those music pitch estimation papers out
to see what they have there. We can do such pitch estimator improvement
after IETF 79 if we can't finish it before then.

Raymond

P.S. It just so happens that this week I am completely booked solid
during the weekdays -- a 3.5-day off-site conference followed by a
1.5-day meeting, so I don't have much time to work on this method this
week. This is very rare for me. Sorry about that. Next week I expect to
have more time to work on this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:13 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT
codec

Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
> file rather than the pitch filtering?

The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable and
consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether it's
possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a robust
enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors in the
estimation. I'm still working on both.

> I will take a look at that file. Is that a raw file? I am not familiar
> with the ".sw" file extension.

That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just the
sox program's extension for "signed word".

> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the other
> solo instrument files that I am working on, although the degree of
> improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.

Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it
works on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or
non-harmonic signals. As long as we're in a situation where it improves
on a subset of
the samples while not degrading the others, I'm happy.

> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
> still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
> about the
> algorithm development in the reflector. I wonder if some people in the
> codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded with such emails.
> Should we consider moving such detailed codec algorithm development
> discussions off the WG mailing list and just between those of us who
> are interested or are directly involved?
>
> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical
> development in emails)?

I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF
lists are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps
improve the
SNR :-)

Cheers,

Jean-Marc



_______________________________________________ codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec


_______________________________________________ codec mailing list
codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec

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From: Monty Montgomery <xiphmont@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Koen Vos <koen.vos@skype.net> wrote:
> The need for reliable and consistent pitch estimates is there for SILK as well:

Indeed, this problem, and the problem of a harmonic filter that does
not cause harn for non-harmonic (chord) spectra is central to the
needs of Ghost development as well.

Monty

From jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca  Thu Oct 28 04:06:40 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Raymond and others,

See comments below.

On 10-10-28 02:10 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Thanks for your comments.  If the problem is with the pitch
> estimation, the good thing is that it does not affect the bit-stream
> format if we just use the integer pitch period within a certain
> range.  Even after the bit-stream format is frozen, the pitch
> estimation accuracy can still be improved later as it only affects
> the encoder side. Therefore, even if we can't get a very reliable
> pitch estimator for music before the IETF 79 meeting, it doesn't
> necessarily need to hold up the bit-stream definition.

Actually, the good news is that I think I now have a pitch estimator
that is good enough to show that the prefilter/postfilter is useful.
It's not perfect, but the error rate no longer causes too many
artefacts. Most importantly, we have run this on many non-harmonic
signals and so far we have not been able to find samples that get
noticeably degraded. That was my main fear with this idea and I think
it's gone now.

> Hence, I think the pitch estimation accuracy is not the most urgent
> issue.  I think the most urgent issue is to design the pitch filter
> tap(s) codebook entries so they all correspond to stable pitch
> filters and there are enough variety of filter tap sets in the
> codebook so they allow us to shape the envelope of the frequency
> response of the pitch filters in a wide range from fully periodic (no
> envelope shaping) to something that effectively turns off the pitch
> filter.  To finalize the bit-stream, we do need to finalize such a
> filter tap codebook.

I'm currently using a fixed 3-tap structure with coefficients [1,
sqrt(3), 1]/(2+sqrt(3) and the frequency response for a gain of 0.5 is
the link i sent earlier: http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/postfilter.png

One issue we found is that using a single-tap filter would create too HF
artefacts -- especially in signals that have a periodic component (i.e
trigger the pitch predictor), but would not otherwise need the filtering.

So unless we can clearly find a case that doesn't work with this single
3-tap predictor, I'm tempted to only have one set of taps. In general, I
think that pitch is less important as frequency goes up for the
following reasons:
1) In-harmonicity as Koen pointed out
2) Critical bands are wide enough that there is more masking (so less
need for a postfilter)
3) Because of the high SNR in higher bands, there is more danger of
changing the total energy of the band, which would be perceptually bad

That being said, I'll revise my opinion if we can find classes of
signals that don't work well with this fixed predictor and give good
results with another predictor that we can't use for "normal" samples.

> I remember I have seen some papers on pitch estimation techniques for
> music signals published at IEEE ICASSP conferences, and from the
> pitch contour figures in the papers, they seem to work well.  I think
> we can first try to improve the CELT PLC pitch estimator, BroadVoice
> pitch estimator, or SILK pitch estimator to see if we can get
> satisfactory pitch estimation performance for both speech and music
> with low enough complexity.  If not, we can check those music pitch
> estimation papers out to see what they have there.  We can do such
> pitch estimator improvement after IETF 79 if we can't finish it
> before then.

As I sad, I'm no longer too worried about the pitch predictor. I'm
currently using the CELT PLC predictor with a "de-doubling" step at the
end, so the good news is that the first stages could probably use any
predictor. Of course, it would be nice to merge code and end up with a
single predictor and we can incorporate ideas from multiple places. And
as you say, since this does not affect the bit-stream, it is less urgent
indeed.

As a note, this is what I'm currently getting with CELT and SILK for the
pitch of the tricky sample i linked to earlier:
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/pitch_silk_celt.png
Note that this isn't meant to bash the SILK pitch estimator, since
although it makes more error (even after I set the biases Koen
mentioned) it's probably much better than what I have on speech -- which
is what matters most for SILK.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

> Raymond
> 
> P.S. It just so happens that this week I am completely booked solid
> during the weekdays -- a 3.5-day off-site conference followed by a
> 1.5-day meeting, so I don't have much time to work on this method
> this week.  This is very rare for me.  Sorry about that.  Next week I
> expect to have more time to work on this.
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin
> [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 27,
> 2010 6:13 AM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Jean-Marc Valin;
> 'codec@ietf.org' Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to
> improve the mode 1 CELT codec
> 
> Hi Raymond,
> 
> On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
>> file rather than the pitch filtering?
> 
> The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable
> and consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether
> it's possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a
> robust enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors
> in the estimation. I'm still working on both.
> 
>> I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not
>> familiar with the ".sw" file extension.
> 
> That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just
> the sox program's extension for "signed word".
> 
>> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the
>> other solo instrument files that I am working on, although the
>> degree of improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.
> 
> Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it
> works on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or
> non-harmonic signals. As long as we're in a situation where it
> improves on a subset of the samples while not degrading the others,
> I'm happy.
> 
>> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
>> still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
>> about the algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some
>> people in the codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded
>> with such emails. Should we consider moving such detailed codec
>> algorithm development discussions off the WG mailing list and just
>> between those of us who are interested or are directly involved?
>> 
>> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical 
>> development in emails)?
> 
> I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF
> lists are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps
> improve the SNR :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jean-Marc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From rchen@broadcom.com  Thu Oct 28 23:44:43 2010
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Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT codec
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Glad to hear that you now have a pitch estimator that's satisfactory to you=
. That a very good news.

Regarding your comments about single-tap filter, yes, I mentioned in my ori=
ginal email that for some signals it can produce more periodicity in the hi=
gh frequencies than in the original signal.  However, if you send a mode/fl=
ag bit to turn the filter on or off (or make one of the candidate tap weigh=
ts equal to zero) and if there is a evaluation process in the encoder side =
to determine whether to turn on the pitch filter, then if we decide that a =
single-tap pitch filter will degrade quality, we can always turn it off. (T=
he evaluation can even be a closed-loop determination by trying both, altho=
ugh this will increase the encoding complexity significantly.)  I am not ad=
vocating using a single-tap pitch filter.  I am just saying that if for som=
e reason a single-tap pitch filter is used for its simplicity, we don't nec=
essarily have to suffer quality degradation because we can always turn it o=
ff dynamically for those frames where it can degrade quality.

Regarding your comments about a single fixed set of 3 filter taps, are you =
planning to send different scaling factor to scale the three taps so as to =
control the degree of comb filtering?  I agree that generally it makes more=
 sense to use a 3-tap pitch filter than a single-tap pitch filter as you di=
scussed.  Having a single fixed set of 3 filter taps (and thus a single kin=
d of envelope) may be fine, but don't you think we should have different sc=
aling factors to scale these three taps so we can control the degree of com=
b filtering to fit different kinds of audio signals?

Also, although you can't find any audio signal that this fixed set doesn't =
work, what if we later find some signals that this fixed set of taps doesn'=
t work well?  In a more conservative design, wouldn't you want at least a f=
ew different envelope shapes for the frequency response of the pitch filter=
s?

I am not necessarily proposing some new development direction.  I am just t=
hrowing some questions for us to think about.

Raymond

-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marc Valin [mailto:jean-marc.valin@usherbrooke.ca]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:09 AM
To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen
Cc: Jean-Marc Valin; 'codec@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to improve the mode 1 CELT co=
dec

Hi Raymond and others,

See comments below.

On 10-10-28 02:10 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Thanks for your comments.  If the problem is with the pitch
> estimation, the good thing is that it does not affect the bit-stream
> format if we just use the integer pitch period within a certain
> range.  Even after the bit-stream format is frozen, the pitch
> estimation accuracy can still be improved later as it only affects
> the encoder side. Therefore, even if we can't get a very reliable
> pitch estimator for music before the IETF 79 meeting, it doesn't
> necessarily need to hold up the bit-stream definition.

Actually, the good news is that I think I now have a pitch estimator
that is good enough to show that the prefilter/postfilter is useful.
It's not perfect, but the error rate no longer causes too many
artefacts. Most importantly, we have run this on many non-harmonic
signals and so far we have not been able to find samples that get
noticeably degraded. That was my main fear with this idea and I think
it's gone now.

> Hence, I think the pitch estimation accuracy is not the most urgent
> issue.  I think the most urgent issue is to design the pitch filter
> tap(s) codebook entries so they all correspond to stable pitch
> filters and there are enough variety of filter tap sets in the
> codebook so they allow us to shape the envelope of the frequency
> response of the pitch filters in a wide range from fully periodic (no
> envelope shaping) to something that effectively turns off the pitch
> filter.  To finalize the bit-stream, we do need to finalize such a
> filter tap codebook.

I'm currently using a fixed 3-tap structure with coefficients [1,
sqrt(3), 1]/(2+sqrt(3) and the frequency response for a gain of 0.5 is
the link i sent earlier: http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/postfilter.png

One issue we found is that using a single-tap filter would create too HF
artefacts -- especially in signals that have a periodic component (i.e
trigger the pitch predictor), but would not otherwise need the filtering.

So unless we can clearly find a case that doesn't work with this single
3-tap predictor, I'm tempted to only have one set of taps. In general, I
think that pitch is less important as frequency goes up for the
following reasons:
1) In-harmonicity as Koen pointed out
2) Critical bands are wide enough that there is more masking (so less
need for a postfilter)
3) Because of the high SNR in higher bands, there is more danger of
changing the total energy of the band, which would be perceptually bad

That being said, I'll revise my opinion if we can find classes of
signals that don't work well with this fixed predictor and give good
results with another predictor that we can't use for "normal" samples.

> I remember I have seen some papers on pitch estimation techniques for
> music signals published at IEEE ICASSP conferences, and from the
> pitch contour figures in the papers, they seem to work well.  I think
> we can first try to improve the CELT PLC pitch estimator, BroadVoice
> pitch estimator, or SILK pitch estimator to see if we can get
> satisfactory pitch estimation performance for both speech and music
> with low enough complexity.  If not, we can check those music pitch
> estimation papers out to see what they have there.  We can do such
> pitch estimator improvement after IETF 79 if we can't finish it
> before then.

As I sad, I'm no longer too worried about the pitch predictor. I'm
currently using the CELT PLC predictor with a "de-doubling" step at the
end, so the good news is that the first stages could probably use any
predictor. Of course, it would be nice to merge code and end up with a
single predictor and we can incorporate ideas from multiple places. And
as you say, since this does not affect the bit-stream, it is less urgent
indeed.

As a note, this is what I'm currently getting with CELT and SILK for the
pitch of the tricky sample i linked to earlier:
http://jmvalin.ca/misc_stuff/pitch_silk_celt.png
Note that this isn't meant to bash the SILK pitch estimator, since
although it makes more error (even after I set the biases Koen
mentioned) it's probably much better than what I have on speech -- which
is what matters most for SILK.

Cheers,

	Jean-Marc

> Raymond
>=20
> P.S. It just so happens that this week I am completely booked solid
> during the weekdays -- a 3.5-day off-site conference followed by a
> 1.5-day meeting, so I don't have much time to work on this method
> this week.  This is very rare for me.  Sorry about that.  Next week I
> expect to have more time to work on this.
>=20
> -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Marc Valin
> [mailto:jean-marc.valin@octasic.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 27,
> 2010 6:13 AM To: Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen Cc: Jean-Marc Valin;
> 'codec@ietf.org' Subject: Re: [codec] A pitch filtering method to
> improve the mode 1 CELT codec
>=20
> Hi Raymond,
>=20
> On 10-10-27 02:17 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
>> Are you saying the problem is in the pitch estimation for that test
>> file rather than the pitch filtering?
>=20
> The fundamental problem is definitely with the estimation. Reliable
> and consistent pitch estimation is hard. The question is thus whether
> it's possible to either have a reliable enough estimator *or* have a
> robust enough filtering scheme that it can tolerate occasional errors
> in the estimation. I'm still working on both.
>=20
>> I will take a look at that file.  Is that a raw file?  I am not
>> familiar with the ".sw" file extension.
>=20
> That's just a 48 kHz raw 16-bit PCM file (little endian). sw is just
> the sox program's extension for "signed word".
>=20
>> I could hear audible improvement when I tried the method on the
>> other solo instrument files that I am working on, although the
>> degree of improvement depends on which file it is, as expected.
>=20
> Yes, I'm also observing that. What I mainly want to improve is how it
> works on more complicated signals (like the one I linked to), or
> non-harmonic signals. As long as we're in a situation where it
> improves on a subset of the samples while not degrading the others,
> I'm happy.
>=20
>> I am starting to wonder how many people in the codec WG email list
>> still want to continue to see our low-level technical discussions
>> about the algorithm development in the reflector.  I wonder if some
>> people in the codec WG email list would prefer not to be bombarded
>> with such emails. Should we consider moving such detailed codec
>> algorithm development discussions off the WG mailing list and just
>> between those of us who are interested or are directly involved?
>>=20
>> Or is this how IETF supposed to work (discussing all technical=20
>> development in emails)?
>=20
> I think we should keep having this discussion on the list. The IETF
> lists are normally meant for technical discussions so this just helps
> improve the SNR :-)
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Jean-Marc
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



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Hi Raymond,

On 10-10-29 02:46 AM, Raymond (Juin-Hwey) Chen wrote:
> Regarding your comments about single-tap filter, yes, I mentioned in
> my original email that for some signals it can produce more
> periodicity in the high frequencies than in the original signal.
> However, if you send a mode/flag bit to turn the filter on or off (or
> make one of the candidate tap weights equal to zero) and if there is
> a evaluation process in the encoder side to determine whether to turn
> on the pitch filter, then if we decide that a single-tap pitch filter
> will degrade quality, we can always turn it off. (The evaluation can
> even be a closed-loop determination by trying both, although this
> will increase the encoding complexity significantly.)  I am not
> advocating using a single-tap pitch filter.  I am just saying that if
> for some reason a single-tap pitch filter is used for its simplicity,
> we don't necessarily have to suffer quality degradation because we
> can always turn it off dynamically for those frames where it can
> degrade quality.

At this point, I really don't see what kind of audio signal would
benefit from having a one-tap filter and I don't see how we could
automatically detect this either in the encoder. If anything I think a
5-tap filter would be more useful, though I'm not sure we really want to
go there either.

> Regarding your comments about a single fixed set of 3 filter taps,
> are you planning to send different scaling factor to scale the three
> taps so as to control the degree of comb filtering?  I agree that
> generally it makes more sense to use a 3-tap pitch filter than a
> single-tap pitch filter as you discussed.  Having a single fixed set
> of 3 filter taps (and thus a single kind of envelope) may be fine,
> but don't you think we should have different scaling factors to scale
> these three taps so we can control the degree of comb filtering to
> fit different kinds of audio signals?

Oh, of course. The current code I have has four levels for the "global
gain" of that filter (in increments of 0.125), with 0.5 being the
largest value value encodable. This is mostly probably not optimal and
we would probably want to allow slightly larger gains even if we don't
make use of them yet. Feel free to make suggestions here.

> Also, although you can't find any audio signal that this fixed set
> doesn't work, what if we later find some signals that this fixed set
> of taps doesn't work well?  In a more conservative design, wouldn't
> you want at least a few different envelope shapes for the frequency
> response of the pitch filters?

I think we're more likely to come across audio that requires a different
3-tap filter than audio that requires a single tap. That being said, I
still don't really see what that would look like and there's many
possibilities. One issue here is that for small frame sizes, coding
these parameters can end up being expensive, so before adding anything
we need a reasonable expectation that it will be useful.

> I am not necessarily proposing some new development direction.  I am
> just throwing some questions for us to think about.

Sure. I think in the end we're going to just try a variety of audio
samples and see if anything needs more than what we're currently doing.
I think we will, but I currently have no idea yet in what direction
it'll send us.

	Jean-Marc
