From owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Dec 4 14:57:06 2003 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB4EuYqW009879 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:56:34 GMT Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.2/Submit) id hB4EuXYF009878 for ip-dvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:56:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [209.116.240.194] (foxtrot.nab.org [209.116.240.194]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB4EtxqW009842 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:55:59 GMT Received: from mail.nab.org by [209.116.240.194] via smtpd (for mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.77]) with ESMTP; Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:56:00 -0500 Received: (private information removed) Message-ID: <5A659834E1607E4EBD72FCE2FE5C9CF102FEBBF2@mail.NAB.ORG> From: "Allison, Art" To: "'ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk'" Cc: "Mark Richer (E-mail)" Subject: RE: FINAL CALL for Feedback on Charter Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:55:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Sorry was away from email since last week. I did make a typo in the text but the hyperlink was correct to A/92, not A/93. With respect to contributions, you will find much of A/92 is actually informative, and addresses the key issues of defining a 'network' , IP multicast address collisions, MAC addresses and the other work items. In an ATSC Transport Stream, the collection of Program Elements referenced in a single ATSC A/90 Application shall be considered as a distinct IP Network. More specifically, when making routing policies and IP address scoping policies, it is the collection of Taps in an ATSC A/90 Application that shall be viewed as the Network. Read more about it in A/92. The scope and work plan does not reference A/92 directly however. It seems to me that a solution to work item #3 has been developed for the ATSC transport and defined for that transport. I suggest it be considered first as a basis for a more general solution and only if it is found lacking should the group invent a different solution. The issue is complex and subtle, and many man hours have been spent on it already. I suggest adding: "In accomplishing the work items the preference is use documented Standard approaches as the basis of a more widely applicable international solution. Serious consideration is to be given to the approaches in ATSC A/92 that address part or all of each work item before inventing new approaches." After the list of work items. Art ::{) Art Allison Director Advanced Engineering NAB 1771 N St NW Washington DC 20036 202 429 5418 -----Original Message----- From: Gorry Fairhurst [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 2:43 AM To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: FINAL CALL for Feedback on Charter OK, so if you think that adding ATSC in the examples, would encourage more input to this working group, this seems good. - see in line. On 26/11/03 4:57 pm, "Allison, Art" wrote: > See embedded. > > Art > ::{) > Art Allison > Director Advanced Engineering > NAB > 1771 N St NW > Washington DC 20036 > 202 429 5418 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gorry Fairhurst [mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:06 AM > To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: Re: FINAL CALL for Feedback on Charter > > > On 26/11/03 2:03 pm, "Allison, Art" wrote: > >> The charter's focus on IP over MPEG-2 being DVB centric is very > troublesome. > > Where does it say it is DVB-based (it shouldn't)? > AA> The sentence "The specific focus of the group is on the use of MPEG-2 > transport (examples include the Digital Video Broadcast (DVB) standards: > DVB-RCS; DVB-S and DVB-T Insert "and the related ATSC Standards" ? > ) in next generation networks and is not concerned > with the development, replacement, or retention of existing protocols on the > existing generation of networks. " seems to so imply, as no scope > requirement to make the solution work on any other transport is mentioned. > // > - The DVB examples in para 1 were brought to the mailing list, if you wish > to add other examples of IP over ATSC, then please do suggest some.... > > The reference in the second para should include to A/93, as that is the IP > specific standard (A/90 is even more ATSC specific and maps very closely at > the encapsulation layer to ETSI's) Do you mean "A/93" which speaks of synchronous triggers? - I may well be missing something, but this seems to be describing synchronisation of data download rather than IP packet delivery. > >> Certainly the developed method should enable IP over DVB-flavored >> Transports. However, as an international standard, it should enable IP > over >> all flavors of transport, and not discriminate against other flavors. > ATSC, >> ISDB and other systems (China's) should be enabled as well. A generic >> solution abstracted from the details of transport would seem to have a > much >> larger marketplace. >> >> I note that delivery of IP over MPEG-2 has been solved for the ATSC > > - Good, we'd particularly welcome your experience, especially if you can > contribute experience for using IPv6, especially autoconfiguration. > >> transport, and while the standard is tied to ATSC announcement, that tie >> could be abstracted, as it is not the heart of the technology. The IP >> therein is a technically separable layer. The essence of the standard is > how >> to deal with the one-way issues that contrast IP over broadcast vs. two > way >> over the internet. >> >> See http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_92.pdf >> >> The current scope seems to be one of requiring re-inventing the wheel, and >> being narrow while doing so... perhaps a broader view would better serve > the >> world. > > By broader do you mean not specific to ATSC;DVB; etc? > > AA>> Correct, over DVB would be one important instance, That's precisely the intention. > which can show how > an abstracted solution may be employed, and perhaps as there is much > interest in making sure that instance is workable; it may be the first such > instance verification. So, if people with know about ATSC, ISDB-T (and others) can provide experience, and inputs to the mailing list/internet-drafts, it will help definitely shape the design and will also keep this group from making decisions that could raise future compatibility issues with these systems. That would be most valuable. >> Art >> ::{) >> Art Allison >> Director Advanced Engineering >> NAB >> 1771 N St NW >> Washington DC 20036 >> 202 429 5418 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > > > > From owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Dec 5 14:08:03 2003 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB5E7YoN027125 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:07:34 GMT Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.2/Submit) id hB5E7XMp027124 for ip-dvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:07:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [10.0.1.8] (maxp17.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.7.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB5E71oO027104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:07:04 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 14:07:23 +0000 Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-fair-ipdvb-ule-02.txt From: Gorry Fairhurst To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk For you info: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Ultra Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) for transmission of IP datagrams over MPEG-2/DVB networks Author(s) : G. Fairhurst, B. Collini-Nocker Filename : draft-fair-ipdvb-ule-02.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2003-11-24 The MPEG-2 TS has been widely accepted not only for providing digital TV services, but also as a subnetwork technology for building IP networks. This document describes an Ultra Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) mechanism for the transport of IPv4 and IPv6 Datagrams and other network protocol packets directly over ISO MPEG- 2 Transport Streams (TS) as TS Private Data. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-ule-02.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-fair-ipdvb-ule-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Dec 17 16:10:08 2003 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBHG9XGf008348 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:09:33 GMT Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.2/Submit) id hBHG9XH2008347 for ip-dvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:09:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBHG93Gg008309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:09:04 GMT Message-ID: <3FE07F9F.3000308@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:09:03 +0000 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: New charter revision. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Following the comments received from various people, a revised copy of the proposed ipdvb charter (with minor corrections) is now available at: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/charter.html Best wishes, Gorry Fairhurst. ----- The list of current status of documents being tracked by this group is also provided below. ULE: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-ule-02.txt Framework/Requirements: (New ID submitted, announcement expected this week): http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/ids/draft-fair-ipdvb-req-04.txt AR: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-ar-00.txt From owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Dec 18 11:54:39 2003 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBIBrQk5023872 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:53:26 GMT Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.2/Submit) id hBIBrPre023871 for ip-dvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:53:25 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBIBr6k6023852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:53:06 GMT Message-ID: <3FE19523.60400@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:53:07 +0000 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-fair-ipdvb-req-04.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ip-dvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Requirements for transmission of IP datagrams over MPEG-2 networks Author(s) : G. Fairhurst Filename : draft-fair-ipdvb-req-04.txt Pages : 39 Date : 2003-12-17 This document contains requirements for a framework for transport of IP Datagrams over ISO MPEG-2 Transport Streams (TS). The MPEG-2 TS has been widely accepted not only for providing digital TV services, but also as a subnetwork technology for building IP networks. Examples include the Digital Video Broadcast (DVB), specified by standards published by the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) and the ATSC Digital Television Standard specified by the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC). It identifies the need for the definition of a set of network protocols to standardise the interface between the MPEG-2 Transport Stream and an IP subnetwork. It also suggests an optimised encapsulation method for IP datagrams. The requirements for these functions are described, and a framework proposed for their implementation. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-req-04.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-fair-ipdvb-req-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-fair-ipdvb-req-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft.