
From nobody Tue May  2 01:43:45 2017
Return-Path: <adrian@hopebailie.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA268129490 for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue,  2 May 2017 01:43:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.299
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopebailie.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W-sUdqD93dkp for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue,  2 May 2017 01:43:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BF76127078 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Tue,  2 May 2017 01:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s85so6051659vka.1 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Tue, 02 May 2017 01:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopebailie.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=w29j/LAloOgGdQuAE1idKboIaGeUMEDBRjgEX4qCol8=; b=HNH9qABq2YOoczkgtDORfSQ1SJMC27lI3FXjiIzGWVf+WuhZmFyQcp0ARkw6UMHYoU NHWZ6fYsOxXotgt6QEFF1d2jpEU+mZqlYJlOmFG1L6FAXWc+Cy9nYTj3Cs+0qCtZcHUu 6vcGuzOQjUzLvaWa707nI/iAX606Xms5QrpBE=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=w29j/LAloOgGdQuAE1idKboIaGeUMEDBRjgEX4qCol8=; b=ubg86MaISgK0GyB8BBcW8bOVTTUUPHzMDgvCk9oFMWVeIltjaErwDmVmI0xpxN1vn8 s54iWNwjEGgth+YqU2DAlIThZcqd3DFzHNosnk02qWQIxBURyT6FTcE9vK5I8WwakmB3 G24igQWb4xKwpAjYt8LVpN0R1lVJj+cKzT+arZlYEZfjjKxMx2pdR3qUgSV0GryOC50e WaFebNR1T/q/dr2zKmd8FOtbAzx095wfLRlMjFyBoI2x8xhVXHS+aokECEUUKMMQJgz/ kR/LbltvlwscfWfx+GKwxNX27dsM981hX1V0U1VyYWRQ+9n+i05iRp5O3KcKOG8O/3if dhqw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/4Cr1/sXBrfhs1/9uTmrdAaS9a0xurqGKqm//DnDJ4y8t+JZif2 OQclJuYyLNRnM7Ufk52DeGN34qpEQw==
X-Received: by 10.31.102.1 with SMTP id a1mr13622405vkc.146.1493714297118; Tue, 02 May 2017 01:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.153.68 with HTTP; Tue, 2 May 2017 01:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 01:38:16 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+eFz_L4J9HzOqvhZNGvRQQV=9nDv+KjuPKi4wMBNJG5k8i+vg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Interledger Community Group <public-interledger@w3.org>,  Interledger Mailing List - IETF <ledger@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e0230138659054e867677
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/dyCK5GS5NaldINzGwy5ydoYYgYQ>
Subject: [Ledger] Interledger Community Call - 3 May - 3pm UTC
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 May 2017 08:43:44 -0000

--001a114e0230138659054e867677
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

*AGENDA*

ILP Kit v.20 Update
Interledger Workshop and Hackathon, Berlin, 1 & 2 June
PSK data format (See: https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/issues/197)

Any other topics welcome, please respond or bring them to the call.


*Dial In Details*
To join the meeting, go to:
https://bluejeans.com/795795755
(Try your iPhone or Android phone)

Just want to dial in? (http://bluejeans.com/numbers)
Enter Meeting ID: 795795755

*Reminder that all calls are recorded.*

--001a114e0230138659054e867677
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b>AGENDA</b><br><br></div><div>ILP Kit v.20 Update<b=
r></div><div>Interledger Workshop and Hackathon, Berlin, 1 &amp; 2 June<br>=
</div>PSK data format (See: <a href=3D"https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/=
issues/197">https://github.com/interledger/rfcs/issues/197</a>)<br><br><div=
>Any other topics welcome, please respond or bring them to the call.<br></d=
iv><div><br><b>Dial In Details<br></b><br>To join the meeting, go to:<br><a=
 href=3D"https://bluejeans.com/795795755" target=3D"_blank">https://bluejea=
ns.com/79579575<wbr>5</a><br>(Try your iPhone or Android phone)<br><br>Just=
 want to dial in? (<a href=3D"http://bluejeans.com/numbers" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://bluejeans.com/numbers</a>)<br>Enter Meeting ID: 795795755<br><br>=
<b>Reminder that all calls are recorded.</b></div></div>

--001a114e0230138659054e867677--


From nobody Mon May  8 04:20:52 2017
Return-Path: <adrian@hopebailie.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9328B128CFF for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon,  8 May 2017 04:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.701
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopebailie.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id buI3IAtotSS2 for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon,  8 May 2017 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua0-x232.google.com (mail-ua0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ACE9127868 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon,  8 May 2017 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua0-x232.google.com with SMTP id j17so13611275uag.3 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 08 May 2017 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopebailie.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=k0Kynr9lYcm5A/g2fw2EImIY7W/S3Qrs8cnHLS6OEzA=; b=jV7gKG8A4PjYrJsP3A9YwjBVRvuSBQ/q+5Hhj+Lqt7qaldovQzlOVljcOfrvVWLISd uU7bWa4Oe2mWTBrV8AdpoL2ZF49qcNN9Bfp2L/Ho+XoQ7CI7q+XGRPVgr7/TnYv2gKrr qQS/FHX2HBJlHoTYUchf/fPDgM3M3smCMtMt4=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=k0Kynr9lYcm5A/g2fw2EImIY7W/S3Qrs8cnHLS6OEzA=; b=IVuz+x8CsK496YW2WMGNblT/xnuVxdXkMdWhOhcrNzHKhMR5TgBpy3vn6OuzI+TzTt /CgmbDcueQBw+bfdJITDG22/kfrWHWX4MCaBx11i5JIOPIDERnDUlzfvMkPM7vHM2pyp yxGox3qu8eGeMeH5AHP5Qq79OyKvLdIjKeFvl8gYIwNOZDtH68yZLa8nWKh90VbgmbhL pRKzPVYoLEVLDb5gRAtkTEtqI7Ssq5jCT5yxPxrzGNyTbp7SLdpVQdTyl3Jrd/DPHloq 7F/v1bfbmzodoOAgTSDy+wqb6h7Hzs2XCqhWp3L/4j+CP1mqbHeFWtZIsb5xYHaniFCV gVCg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/60eR2og5wATv3wFduASbPcnPriWlueAKFr6UgtwjvY2DN6HdPN 09KujXcPuQ+KocI7UXj00MPxP4PzIpj1ZNA=
X-Received: by 10.176.82.153 with SMTP id v25mr11203612uav.123.1494242447711;  Mon, 08 May 2017 04:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.153.68 with HTTP; Mon, 8 May 2017 04:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 13:20:47 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+eFz_+4bcX1CreG8QPFOs0kmDoOryHYTTy7Tue4dm1FB58yDQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Interledger Mailing List - IETF <ledger@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1924ee4e02fc054f016ee3
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/fuqf46-B3dKETGC1V7x78v-xQLc>
Subject: [Ledger] Interledger Workshop and Hackathon - Berlin - 1&2 June
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 May 2017 11:20:50 -0000

--94eb2c1924ee4e02fc054f016ee3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi all,

The Interledger community are having a 2 day workshop and hackathon in
Berlin on 1 and 2 June co-located with the Blockchain Expo.

The event is free to attend but registration is required so we can plan
accordingly. As such numbers are limited so please register soon if you
would like to attend.

The high level agenda is some presentation and Q&A time in the morning on 1
June followed by workshop time to discuss the protocol work and plan for
the hackathon. 2 June will be the hackathon and will involve work on the
existing implementation code and also projects using these components.

To register please visit:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/interledger-workshop-at-blockchain-expo-1-2-june-berlin-tickets-34221014977

Adrian

--94eb2c1924ee4e02fc054f016ee3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi all,<br><br></div>The Interled=
ger community are having a 2 day workshop and hackathon in Berlin on 1 and =
2 June co-located with the Blockchain Expo.<br><br></div>The event is free =
to attend but registration is required so we can plan accordingly. As such =
numbers are limited so please register soon if you would like to attend.<br=
><br></div>The high level agenda is some presentation and Q&amp;A time in t=
he morning on 1 June followed by workshop time to discuss the protocol work=
 and plan for the hackathon. 2 June will be the hackathon and will involve =
work on the existing implementation code and also projects using these comp=
onents.<br><br></div>To register please visit: <a href=3D"https://www.event=
brite.com/e/interledger-workshop-at-blockchain-expo-1-2-june-berlin-tickets=
-34221014977">https://www.eventbrite.com/e/interledger-workshop-at-blockcha=
in-expo-1-2-june-berlin-tickets-34221014977</a><br><br></div>Adrian<br></di=
v>

--94eb2c1924ee4e02fc054f016ee3--


From nobody Mon May 15 09:52:09 2017
Return-Path: <adrian@hopebailie.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C605A1293FD for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 15 May 2017 09:52:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopebailie.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CS5_k2n_Y2Jb for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 15 May 2017 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua0-x22b.google.com (mail-ua0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E33212EA52 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 15 May 2017 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id e28so83913119uah.0 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 15 May 2017 09:48:44 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopebailie.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZCFkVuPCPSpg89B5fb4ZtE4p8TTG+Pb1uHYOyHm6tm4=; b=CZoM/EQ+bHHItoTL6LDa/pNKsIoH9odeNaf+EN5qRCHGvpgzgO+eOgxHh2zx59Im2T A8mlR5agNV0q/q1KWDQb9pb+pRdeZ9nGT0AfXPTPmdjyPygWQo7houIIm8DZcprVX6wM wL6uj2aokFLwWOMurC4Dc0jVkGlXF5tarUECc=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZCFkVuPCPSpg89B5fb4ZtE4p8TTG+Pb1uHYOyHm6tm4=; b=CePFa9Bwe+zr96HLiGZLiNaLCWsfFcML+VratRFK+c2jPZqUg+FRXbDSt8vb5Dv2bP RtMUBGk6w9+mPRChmo4CP7LnvG4gisnIVfI1MFzG5AalHHIlkq0XP7BIgQcdCn2xP4za JpSXaJHGf7B1j6m5ykbEjMYx1U8HFPrJ8/5512h/VfeglwlRmnth/Q0uOQx4VZ7E+qsz y8KGNzIsqySr9dMRcVSUrfq0Hm+oNTybvNcoCA3Tq2QMt9svPauEQG/QPTcre/PoLJmE XZOJHezeyKBwEPX5UKg+hIaNiACcIEJhLlGWou5NNKrdPLiuDIM8cEmEqFicUmGqjS6v eErA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAbGkb//lN7UjUarFmzspLKgEf+GmZgsjZ0pfMW0nRXgTHbTg91 sXAd4wf7xY5wR3NpyL2A5+HYtvTODw==
X-Received: by 10.159.38.132 with SMTP id 4mr3052261uay.123.1494866923243; Mon, 15 May 2017 09:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.183.69 with HTTP; Mon, 15 May 2017 09:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 18:48:42 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+eFz_JCCL1umAumg1iwYprvpBbR+G_rkyu7rhanxr7g9YQohQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Interledger Mailing List - IETF <ledger@ietf.org>,  Interledger Community Group <public-interledger@w3.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0481c8f2d9b3054f92d3d4"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/ycFNAmzGLXcZmoxRIfjboHBFUPM>
Subject: [Ledger] AGENDA - Bi-weekly Call - 17 May - 3pm UTC
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 16:52:08 -0000

--94eb2c0481c8f2d9b3054f92d3d4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

*AGENDA*

- ILP Kit stability updates and planning
- Demo of XRP-PayChan, XRP-Escrow and Ethereum integrations
- Planning for Hackathon in Berlin on 2 June
- Peering Party! (details below)

We're planning to spend some time at the end of the call helping people
peer with others on the growing ILP network.

Come to the call prepared by getting an ILP Kit up and running and then
find people on the call you can connect with.

For help setting up an ILP Kit look at:
https://github.com/interledgerjs/ilp-kit#setup

Any other topics welcome, please respond or bring them to the call.


*Dial In Details*
To join the meeting, go to:
https://bluejeans.com/795795755
(Try your iPhone or Android phone)

Just want to dial in? (http://bluejeans.com/numbers)
Enter Meeting ID: 795795755

*Reminder that all calls are recorded.*

--94eb2c0481c8f2d9b3054f92d3d4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b><span class=3D"gmail-il">AGENDA</=
span></b><br><br></div>- ILP Kit stability updates and planning<br></div><d=
iv>- Demo of XRP-PayChan, XRP-Escrow and Ethereum integrations<br></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">- Planning for Hackathon in Berlin on 2 June<br></div><div>- =
Peering Party! (details below)<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>We&=
#39;re planning to spend some time at the end of the call helping people pe=
er with others on the growing ILP network.<br><br></div><div>Come to the ca=
ll prepared by getting an ILP Kit up and running and then find people on th=
e call you can connect with.<br><br></div><div>For help setting up an ILP K=
it look at: <a href=3D"https://github.com/interledgerjs/ilp-kit#setup">http=
s://github.com/interledgerjs/ilp-kit#setup</a><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
r>Any other topics welcome, please respond or bring them to the call.<br><d=
iv><br><b>Dial In Details<br></b><br>To join the meeting, go to:<br><a href=
=3D"https://bluejeans.com/795795755" target=3D"_blank">https://bluejeans.co=
m/79579575<wbr>5</a><br>(Try your iPhone or Android phone)<br><br>Just want=
 to dial in? (<a href=3D"http://bluejeans.com/numbers" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://bluejeans.com/numbers</a>)<br>Enter Meeting ID: 795795755<br><br><b>Re=
minder that all calls are recorded.</b></div></div></div>

--94eb2c0481c8f2d9b3054f92d3d4--


From jeremie.miller@gmail.com  Mon May 22 16:22:01 2017
Return-Path: <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00B912944A for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 May 2017 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Lr2BtSYo_El for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 May 2017 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua0-x229.google.com (mail-ua0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D641129443 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua0-x229.google.com with SMTP id j17so68430280uag.3 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;  h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2ecedQs447uQGnJaB1ce19VkIM/U3nn2VHYBrh1I144=; b=HLT6Zyt0LfyyDusrz/FjjxUFKE1mehG2+9XvSSex8NkdkFxI5iV46xCzmegvhRveZK b9z/57SzH1uCU6KdSXpGmaTVJUKHdNpH7kz964dD3bqsxP4bPtu8fz6CkfroGWJC2QUn VAmq7phJT46KcHAgWty1j70GCsCtas86w6cPYXNfIiRBFdtKiCJLK6mLhCJuM8SRjPDg hmn/nzyNdc7Q9qJyuAZDgd2os3OzUIi8AwTo/BQ7RshrwU22ac1nUiQ0LG9L+hGu0NYz BBBB0tSgWk8nK3l8jNceVhre5a0/2ijrtfNZta212HjgKQQCuHQe2DxWlcrrMW0r5NUw vDNw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2ecedQs447uQGnJaB1ce19VkIM/U3nn2VHYBrh1I144=; b=IeRoYgQ7BM0fJ9i5KD30EML6ai1oN6uBUUccKL1cl2xxjFa2Snvbk7oizNGv6OADdN nARmRwfd4s1U6MLPU9IcxXMzVXyzAOSQ802YjwUMbgjOigZi4Q3GVc1E+Fvw9g7ByfCS FQycsPZO8KeHueAh7kmH3fpZj2p5fGUuDU06JRP2/Zvcq0sJ1yYrQV/UzG86ANhkl35Z bRFwFaLzgyzWdhH/H/xg/cd2mledOs4wA1Ao9inuYK3ZFqB2Ts9efFqrpy+jmNjEcU5y hLiBz2Hno5Y/LFncTwtclHh2IWgZOugOZxdmYM+IN5vltXNiOIvvSumCDvr2ergGhOvI MB0g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcADUBGtxdZyK4o6vO9McOD3RNzt1mNZ/Ivxe4pWWDcV2BRcYtOQ rgwnIB7kJzBqU6DqPtBR6VHFg+KEKQ==
X-Received: by 10.176.0.226 with SMTP id 89mr13998126uaj.10.1495495319528; Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:59 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.176.85.7 with HTTP; Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremie Miller <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:21:39 -0600
Message-ID: <CAAFNpxv_fN7mASDh5B-RD6fvNBzK7ya-khQ3-tOTyGxY=NS7aw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stefan Thomas <stefan@ripple.com>, rome@ripple.com, adrian@ripple.com
Cc: ledger@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d00c048af600550252309"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/73psRlwSkj1O1ZjXQbyN-4BHfSE>
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:25:43 -0700
Subject: [Ledger] feedback on draft-thomas-crypto-conditions-02
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 00:25:41 -0000

--001a113d00c048af600550252309
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I would highly suggest that JOSE be evaluated for all crypto primitives,
and where/if binary packing is required for consistency then COSE should
also be strongly considered.

Jer

--001a113d00c048af600550252309
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

<div dir="ltr">I would highly suggest that JOSE be evaluated for all crypto primitives, and where/if binary packing is required for consistency then COSE should also be strongly considered.<div><br></div><div>Jer</div><div><br></div></div>

--001a113d00c048af600550252309--


From adrian@ripple.com  Tue May 23 00:00:43 2017
Return-Path: <adrian@ripple.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05307126DCA for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 May 2017 00:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9,  DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ripple.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QA3BArR6nyYS for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 May 2017 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52DF01294A3 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 May 2017 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w50so50674553wrc.0 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 May 2017 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ripple.com; s=google;  h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ic9SiEz2zsHUtWHl+DDc7eRsc6WNTm2f75fMAP1Mhc0=; b=j1JrgkG3PnAMiUq+RPB/Tf8J5Rwjcxb31tvTkGv5wNR1L8hkt0jLCkuc/ZwLvoLsj7 fkueRddD/XJk01zzO6y/zRflBr/lVH8+jOy/THsNxpx6iW5MNGW3HrmTRlzgU4dQ+fGd G3vdJ0HKn1MxOFZFLSS9dbXkkmk7S4+S7tG3w=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ic9SiEz2zsHUtWHl+DDc7eRsc6WNTm2f75fMAP1Mhc0=; b=hwf311eMzJ0PyElyBnzZlvgZ50kB1PgiK6qiJm7EPJjQssLzNVNSDhaHJ3LRckn0iy 0uB7QChkQUnkpVVnF0pVnRSRT34edRuGSPZGIDpGPzNk7GOD44M07UfeJENIhBgq6tfw 8rA6dmgPE2fkkEoZhiTiS2BrgEZhUYntehb23Bh+y9ihv+p60arOF79KJXYW+4yANvz4 6d3o1woKBwo9ZvF2VLcqLvUs0/EKzHwXcIz1CxHaMaYQSsjCvoAS/1TrILY1W1K2H3Sy UI1ZbSJB8dLrMlDm4g7rAz7NQFiMpGUQEbXvJDRWBOn6zBpiPvG+xB+ItWXrMotnNfhb W4YQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDb9H5cIqlzwcBIksrqraHW4vfLMFnWiBVnsoIx6EEpeQ1OiohI BPBMSMhVFJ3t8rcZhxZcbdsgj2SsR9Au
X-Received: by 10.223.128.34 with SMTP id 31mr14655643wrk.108.1495522839639; Tue, 23 May 2017 00:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.28.186.213 with HTTP; Tue, 23 May 2017 00:00:38 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAAFNpxv_fN7mASDh5B-RD6fvNBzK7ya-khQ3-tOTyGxY=NS7aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFNpxv_fN7mASDh5B-RD6fvNBzK7ya-khQ3-tOTyGxY=NS7aw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@ripple.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:38 +0200
Message-ID: <CAN1GQt2Mtxud8iFfAyRVHKFwexsObfE--aoBAn9W=uu7sjFhwg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jeremie Miller <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>
Cc: Stefan Thomas <stefan@ripple.com>, Rome Reginelli <rome@ripple.com>, ledger@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c06849c9c4fd505502b8bbf"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/D-e1kaPKmK4fEO9Fn9aWVz4InXY>
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 May 2017 09:25:43 -0700
Subject: Re: [Ledger] feedback on draft-thomas-crypto-conditions-02
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 07:20:33 -0000

--94eb2c06849c9c4fd505502b8bbf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Jeremie,

When I presented this draft to the SAAG in Seoul the feedback I got was to
stick with DER as this is the most widely used encoding and the best
tooled. We also have no need for a schema-free encoding format so defining
our data structures in ASN.1 seems appropriate.

Are you suggesting we consider using CBOR for the encoding and therefor
COSE as a way to encoded the signed/hashed data?

Adrian

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Jeremie Miller <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I would highly suggest that JOSE be evaluated for all crypto primitives,
> and where/if binary packing is required for consistency then COSE should
> also be strongly considered.
>
> Jer
>
>

--94eb2c06849c9c4fd505502b8bbf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jeremie,<div><br></div><div>When I presented this draft=
 to the SAAG in Seoul the feedback I got was to stick with DER as this is t=
he most widely used encoding and the best tooled. We also have no need for =
a schema-free encoding format so defining our data structures in ASN.1 seem=
s appropriate.</div><div><br></div><div>Are you suggesting we consider usin=
g CBOR for the encoding and therefor COSE as a way to encoded the signed/ha=
shed data?</div><div><br></div><div>Adrian</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Jerem=
ie Miller <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jeremie.miller@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">jeremie.miller@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I would highly suggest that JOSE =
be evaluated for all crypto primitives, and where/if binary packing is requ=
ired for consistency then COSE should also be strongly considered.<div><br>=
</div><div>Jer</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c06849c9c4fd505502b8bbf--


From nobody Wed May 24 09:49:15 2017
Return-Path: <tony@chain.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C58129BB5 for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.533
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.533 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=chain-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l76XyNNpFX2c for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf0-x22f.google.com (mail-lf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1528B129BAE for <ledger@ietf.org>; Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id h4so70880636lfj.3 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chain-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BE5iZrJ2MuKlTtVc9X4ue232oILPm61tpAP+gUygxS8=; b=GOF3P3z9+cdPxmke2k+zkKMJZ1eMDu/tkrPP9DA6NUDLj2z6rfL+l1J224oSl9kwy8 z5liZD2z6vtJU3/uFXNTwqK7xy/9m/hAqPPFCz8Vu/ar6/sogNVC9uexR1nlExsCPdOn b1EizjyuO3HNBz52SUct/+l81mAlHWoERoe1N8IhqsbTbQUNe5OOeV+7tMyVoD6J4elx aqzjzxXLM8Qzkz86XTbvnqAmbwccLwGbRhOfGxCUCef5otjdPjQa2+S/tqeXMpilnBZk yg74lgbOSR4cNa0rdHteqKhVqSRcC/fmcOVeQQ1d6EiaMkBXnsRXlI2cCKyUfytzjd1G mfAA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BE5iZrJ2MuKlTtVc9X4ue232oILPm61tpAP+gUygxS8=; b=kyDSFdlSOE0xdxbqxczbSpzQ91va2scHYhWPjwsYyTnSMwqzrdYgxIYVa9mVI1gD5I X2YKsjqNFLgFFXNAq7BwlIc9C6S1AqnEU9EN103EE1rzumyMU368XOFAZFj4gKYj3gbC i5467LV5+1IkvILF/wh9M+Dvqrmte2ERh//I1JLve7kkak6EZ22A9qvEXi8sRlOL8WSY NnJP5AGBtRYGM5MhIfuElkiqe32kVRkIptk/9+3U/D2CwyvGk4ruXra+QNR5V1+zFMC7 j16g5teTF2xaCvrXQXYxO6KhneCENPq98WPS1tivm2U0BMEW4AhXSxJoLBydQPowv6Go Kbtw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAP+/ScOIvVLZoli9pvMsedgk/fNmeSQJeZ/n/4TUgA5uTMgkRg jZK/cxkxmKAwutwrIcOhkEgEPXQ3/DTt
X-Received: by 10.25.198.211 with SMTP id w202mr8826447lff.28.1495644550250; Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.25.148.201 with HTTP; Wed, 24 May 2017 09:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAN1GQt2Mtxud8iFfAyRVHKFwexsObfE--aoBAn9W=uu7sjFhwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFNpxv_fN7mASDh5B-RD6fvNBzK7ya-khQ3-tOTyGxY=NS7aw@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1GQt2Mtxud8iFfAyRVHKFwexsObfE--aoBAn9W=uu7sjFhwg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Tony Arcieri <tony@chain.com>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:49:09 -0400
Message-ID: <CANnD4AhhAiqKgkj6kfA=ACWJY0bucXXirqy6ANmTdHtCXSyMhw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@ripple.com>
Cc: Jeremie Miller <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>, Stefan Thomas <stefan@ripple.com>, ledger@ietf.org,  Rome Reginelli <rome@ripple.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1a08f220de27055047e24a"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/zcGDoZRqF-B1LTapkAVe4bIl-EM>
Subject: Re: [Ledger] feedback on draft-thomas-crypto-conditions-02
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:49:14 -0000

--94eb2c1a08f220de27055047e24a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 3:00 AM, Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@ripple.com>
wrote:

> When I presented this draft to the SAAG in Seoul the feedback I got was to
> stick with DER as this is the most widely used encoding and the best
> tooled. We also have no need for a schema-free encoding format so defining
> our data structures in ASN.1 seems appropriate.
>

I would definitely recommend sticking with DER for now. JOSE libraries are
almost notorious at this point for immaturity and a series of ongoing
vulnerabilities. This is from 2017 alone:

https://blogs.adobe.com/security/2017/03/critical-vulnerability-uncovered-in-json-encryption.html
https://pivotal.io/security/cve-2017-2773

There were many more last year. That's not to say ASN.1 hasn't been
implicated in its fair share of vulns, but BER generally remains the common
thread there.

--94eb2c1a08f220de27055047e24a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, May 23, 2017 at 3:00 AM, Adrian Hope-Bailie <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:adrian@ripple.com" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ripple.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div>When I presented this draft to the SAAG in Seoul the feedbac=
k I got was to stick with DER as this is the most widely used encoding and =
the best tooled. We also have no need for a schema-free encoding format so =
defining our data structures in ASN.1 seems appropriate.</div></div></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>I would definitely recommend sticking with DER fo=
r now. JOSE libraries are almost notorious at this point for immaturity and=
 a series of ongoing vulnerabilities. This is from 2017 alone:</div><div><b=
r></div><div><a href=3D"https://blogs.adobe.com/security/2017/03/critical-v=
ulnerability-uncovered-in-json-encryption.html">https://blogs.adobe.com/sec=
urity/2017/03/critical-vulnerability-uncovered-in-json-encryption.html</a><=
/div><div><a href=3D"https://pivotal.io/security/cve-2017-2773">https://piv=
otal.io/security/cve-2017-2773</a></div><div><br></div><div>There were many=
 more last year. That&#39;s not to say ASN.1 hasn&#39;t been implicated in =
its fair share of vulns, but BER generally remains the common thread there.=
=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1a08f220de27055047e24a--


From nobody Thu May 25 10:17:05 2017
Return-Path: <tony@chain.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66FA1293F9 for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 25 May 2017 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.934
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.934 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=chain-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oxRu2cSPPaek for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 25 May 2017 10:17:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52386124BFA for <ledger@ietf.org>; Thu, 25 May 2017 10:17:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id m18so87561987lfj.0 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Thu, 25 May 2017 10:17:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chain-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZcVvOhCwjCMWbl3k6EWycEougjSDfT4uhtnS7TZEhd4=; b=CJcC+bD1+A0F2YjCxqEE/zNVW2V2+VNjj0tNX9JajhY5CzYNs7FOa69/HCw6C5sH3K kqWglb0bDUu0ABUA5eOjcS/ZBEWhKspLqTiBh4pjkWAMcpN9uqQdgA59Iq3BoxGQHHnn O4toOy6n7oezHq0Nc/ZZJ95eFiLxfiD45DKr+JkhW1wxWy/BoUlbdgykyJplgOJqeegZ SJz9Lh/B8oyHG755eRokSVflwKjeTq9RJtjSNGvHKqR/xDdBQBa/zdngXlPNsaTEym2e 6HGMS5L1BEnmZ75i4W9koF7zUD4x/8N1aiXnY3LNy5SRhBVIQ8aPlFlTedCZ/Y22QPt0 fNsA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZcVvOhCwjCMWbl3k6EWycEougjSDfT4uhtnS7TZEhd4=; b=HAiAlYI0JaW41c/Z9/v5Dul16mQ0PMgSARLrxOHp8SIQ5KPorAFXMzCuat+E2HdlZy yKWQ5pcgQ5LKHLXISbA4R3RKjtfnAonBJM2H/NmWRGzr5wirSpMgkq1rWIdMLSHiejhv nfHU9VvKVTZawaBtqpzm6GuWUdQYQygDxyOsHWJWWAISRnial8EnXfSW1l+/FyFnItPo x+eGMdv2NTJmVPnevQ7q6MRpzFKu00zQS2T9byH9js7JGHRO6X2issmmdVDmSc4gj4SN 5LRahYdBAlo+DfDxl1U/RTxUH/hXEJtyE/WC3Y+fC559CLYkHU+42YjR3kmJWLctY3X0 t1cg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAwP/H3/bRbL1i5Qn46FsqhAOaEBltzydA8a1DfZZqwfwI2+e93 I8x/rRU1OGgfgZ4L+pH5iZg1d0BMm3Jq
X-Received: by 10.25.199.137 with SMTP id x131mr11309056lff.75.1495732620473;  Thu, 25 May 2017 10:17:00 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAAFNpxv_fN7mASDh5B-RD6fvNBzK7ya-khQ3-tOTyGxY=NS7aw@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1GQt2Mtxud8iFfAyRVHKFwexsObfE--aoBAn9W=uu7sjFhwg@mail.gmail.com> <CANnD4AhhAiqKgkj6kfA=ACWJY0bucXXirqy6ANmTdHtCXSyMhw@mail.gmail.com> <CAAFNpxutS38MufvJqjbnaL93wnWM=bKHUMOD-sj1-hAPSzsX3g@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAAFNpxutS38MufvJqjbnaL93wnWM=bKHUMOD-sj1-hAPSzsX3g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Tony Arcieri <tony@chain.com>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:16:49 +0000
Message-ID: <CANnD4Ag=zYSTcGRqYYdH-6dZ3ZpUW8w7wo0Gq7PSQh-2zLM6Hw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jeremie Miller <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>
Cc: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@ripple.com>, Peter Saint-Andre - Filament <peter@filament.com>,  Rome Reginelli <rome@ripple.com>, Stefan Thomas <stefan@ripple.com>, ledger@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c19c63a85ce7705505c63ec"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/811N5v4ZATr3qeNhEDe0EZW2DAM>
Subject: Re: [Ledger] feedback on draft-thomas-crypto-conditions-02
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 17:17:04 -0000

--94eb2c19c63a85ce7705505c63ec
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:00 AM Jeremie Miller <jeremie.miller@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I can only make a case for JOSE's adoption being the inevitable tide and
> that with more support from newer standards it will become as mature and
> even more widespread in time, similar to the movement from XML to JSON
> across the tech industry.
>

This sounds like what the SPKI people were saying about canonical
S-expressions 20 years ago (they continue to say it, it's just nobody takes
them seriously)

While I think JOSE isn't quite as doomed as SPKI and canonica S-expressions
(I still have a strong preference for the latter, given those choices), I
don't share your sense of inevitability. Where JSON had obvious, immediate
benefits over XMl, those benefits are not as clear versus ASN.1 DER. In
fact, it seems like something of a step backward, as the standard is both
less compact and can't represent the full range of types which ASN.1 can.

JOSE is reviled by practically every security peson I respect, for the
inclusion of junk crypto and numerous other design flaws.

CBOR is also growing with the IoT and is an excellent choice for modern
> constrained encoding.
>

CBOR is slightly more tolerable in that it is more conpact and can express
a wider range of types. That said, it is orthogonal to JOSE in that JOSE
cannot express the same range of types, nor can documents be transcoded
between the formats while retaining canonical content hashes.

--94eb2c19c63a85ce7705505c63ec
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:00 AM Jeremie Miller &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
eremie.miller@gmail.com">jeremie.miller@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>I can only make a=
 case for JOSE&#39;s adoption being the inevitable tide and that with more =
support from newer standards it will become as mature and even more widespr=
ead in time, similar to the movement from XML to JSON across the tech indus=
try.</div><div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This sounds lik=
e what the SPKI people were saying about canonical S-expressions 20 years a=
go (they continue to say it, it&#39;s just nobody takes them seriously)</di=
v><div><br></div><div>While I think JOSE isn&#39;t quite as doomed as SPKI =
and canonica S-expressions (I still have a strong preference for the latter=
, given those choices), I don&#39;t share your sense of inevitability. Wher=
e JSON had obvious, immediate benefits over XMl, those benefits are not as =
clear versus ASN.1 DER. In fact, it seems like something of a step backward=
, as the standard is both less compact and can&#39;t represent the full ran=
ge of types which ASN.1 can.</div><div><br></div><div>JOSE is reviled by pr=
actically every security peson I respect, for the inclusion of junk crypto =
and numerous other design flaws.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div><div>CBOR is also growing with the IoT and is an excellent ch=
oice for modern constrained encoding.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>CBOR is slightly more tolerable in that it is more conpact and=
 can express a wider range of types. That said, it is orthogonal to JOSE in=
 that JOSE cannot express the same range of types, nor can documents be tra=
nscoded between the formats while retaining canonical content hashes.</div>=
</div></div>

--94eb2c19c63a85ce7705505c63ec--


From nobody Mon May 29 09:07:53 2017
Return-Path: <adrian@hopebailie.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE1C129AD8 for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 29 May 2017 09:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.1
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopebailie.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qj1Snld42iiM for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 29 May 2017 09:07:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua0-x232.google.com (mail-ua0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3E17126CD6 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 29 May 2017 09:07:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua0-x232.google.com with SMTP id y4so38048349uay.2 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Mon, 29 May 2017 09:07:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopebailie.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8YTyZVk8QNoCCKrLDBKh4ie6cyZkgs44l4ktloYmmCA=; b=ZXAbd8U0FpJc1MoKTmcoRaYs1kZnX1VKd0SVj4e/lv6RVuTcU7vvLrz2Ksyhe5kXt5 pL0V6Q0y9bRW0zhmkfNlBVo6iFfUILV7qQaIXbdH4Flz9I5N/DyGDEeV3ejFOBQp0ukB 6BPAlpR2/ESpc5whPTEadS/GVnJ6N6BIZCUNU=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8YTyZVk8QNoCCKrLDBKh4ie6cyZkgs44l4ktloYmmCA=; b=rVPGuSpXIGIBr+w3IJd12JnhsQsWqklVBAtkcDmEL+jrK4tWoaGa7YgzbqB1OP5QsN JoY2i5B15+6PgbWtr1DTUhHT1MlMcttBWF7jvo8IGawk/md40VkC83L2RQJ6pupbM5f9 ljd8ArM6TK8ILwqjMWrKH2CIYgs5ytYi5YAVnGOimNTzXg53q9bUrchMZk2+1PAtaoQM OlakAA3QKNuVcLD6sbaJUwwm3iaFL2L93+WnZVLJhciNWpUm2Fc4x+MQTxXe1y5gfU/W k+9pQ7g+0d1TmIKiepJFWyBHO7wxEgUDtXGrHOLsehzAgbuGI9Y9+UiYkwgbWW290Mpa rDfA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAzY0YIZTmwSoP+2R88+Xj/kv27h9S9PCBQ3zt3/4tp0jGco6N0 5KMfTfWyw9+Dm4UqD+GQC8OiK8fhZsQo
X-Received: by 10.176.91.20 with SMTP id u20mr8459283uae.138.1496074069815; Mon, 29 May 2017 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.183.69 with HTTP; Mon, 29 May 2017 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 18:07:49 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+eFz_KRWLzhtyXxyfo-PSVOnjhaxJxVfVq6uZoQXBSD8R3kJg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Interledger Community Group <public-interledger@w3.org>,  Interledger Mailing List - IETF <ledger@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045f8b567d4aac0550abe380"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/aamiVXNM9_POJ7HsboJiQTUCqLM>
Subject: [Ledger] No call this week - Berlin Workshop on 1 and 2 June
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:07:52 -0000

--f403045f8b567d4aac0550abe380
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi all,

A reminder that there is no call this week as we're all getting together in
Berlin on Thursday and Friday for the workshop.

If you haven't yet registered and plan to attend you can do so at
https://interledger.org/workshop

Adrian

--f403045f8b567d4aac0550abe380
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hi all,<br><br></div>A reminder that there =
is no call this week as we&#39;re all getting together in Berlin on Thursda=
y and Friday for the workshop.<br><br></div>If you haven&#39;t yet register=
ed and plan to attend you can do so at <a href=3D"https://interledger.org/w=
orkshop">https://interledger.org/workshop</a><br><br></div>Adrian<br></div>

--f403045f8b567d4aac0550abe380--


From nobody Wed May 31 23:39:13 2017
Return-Path: <adrian@hopebailie.com>
X-Original-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledger@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32476124E15 for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:39:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopebailie.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jc4b2r8hxLKD for <ledger@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua0-x22e.google.com (mail-ua0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A20912441E for <ledger@ietf.org>; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j17so22152580uag.3 for <ledger@ietf.org>; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopebailie.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=rt+CMSDRWM5GXrL70ZjxYWH9YtRvmfYlC+9NudJXCJI=; b=IoBwzcQeaLLS3fjotnovRfS8S7AY5tZ/4bxPkTKv5JcI2k1v3LqK6cPAloIcWTa2pL JQJWD9CqBnFefvRCpVVoIBpYrLgoGnoz5C83u22eneBQFnlUzAqn8pUbncbattLLqcj7 UK59HGiUFMLLmYWBkRdMUczkIvqlJEccU+Ik8=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=rt+CMSDRWM5GXrL70ZjxYWH9YtRvmfYlC+9NudJXCJI=; b=g0+Xe/MdBCPAYqVxSAlZkCdzfe9poAY7SQGNQrxLDcrMyh8t2GxeJ8OlFAMKoLOVht dLBVhldTHhKY4AZNJWBjoSG6HX/3DugIbQWblMZotbUGjkEJbWtGXzf+eYJkZVogtj+u dDz02MCk2u1gWnwZ9iDn9QtyOkYRYgS7IGcyKiBK0gnstisA4ATN2g5OxdRnArivhFfq JrzCVj7RLLsat2i/AdShsxt0lX3wL5gIAvHMirCkcEJjyvQU5PcNoVdfeZ5paDmKF7Mr Zs3OmA1cvFNOL6OH6NKlRMyoBxRrCeLYWVyAT2TrkZmWLa2eUoUpIkXVOm5ntQy1YQYr liAA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBG2pWGELqYHoKQUl4cwD3WLHV2Q+dkYunup9EbtAyWo0aZuf62 hi6QGus5hSdZ5Psbwf3z3XGBXtaYJy88
X-Received: by 10.159.52.214 with SMTP id b22mr15036287uac.93.1496299149467; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.103.183.69 with HTTP; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:39:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Adrian Hope-Bailie <adrian@hopebailie.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 08:39:08 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+eFz_+6muBPVhu71P_PZ2rNAFPXuCUXGeCf+YGDemBYPi5V8A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Interledger Community Group <public-interledger@w3.org>,  Interledger Mailing List - IETF <ledger@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e79764889fa0550e04b3c"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ledger/pT7ooAdD5zT2_4L16SNJjHI1lSI>
Subject: [Ledger] Following the workshop online
X-BeenThere: ledger@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of interledger, originally a protocol stack for moving digital assets \(making payments\) between accounts operating on different payment networks or ledgers." <ledger.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ledger/>
List-Post: <mailto:ledger@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledger>, <mailto:ledger-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 06:39:12 -0000

--f403045e79764889fa0550e04b3c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hey all,

We are going to try and stream the workshop via BlueJeans.
The meeting is the usual one we use for the bi-weekly.

To join the meeting, go to:
https://bluejeans.com/795795755
(Try your iPhone or Android phone)

Just want to dial in? (http://bluejeans.com/numbers)
Enter Meeting ID: 795795755

Adrian

--f403045e79764889fa0550e04b3c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hey all,<br><br></div>We are going to try a=
nd stream the workshop via BlueJeans.<br></div>The meeting is the usual one=
 we use for the bi-weekly.<br><br><b style=3D"font-weight:normal" id=3D"gma=
il-docs-internal-guid-8868337e-6240-3845-fe26-382994fac8b9"><span></span></=
b>To join the meeting, go to:<br><a href=3D"https://bluejeans.com/795795755=
" target=3D"_blank">https://bluejeans.com/79579575<wbr>5</a><br>(Try your i=
Phone or Android phone)<br><br>Just want to dial in? (<a href=3D"http://blu=
ejeans.com/numbers" target=3D"_blank">http://bluejeans.com/numbers</a>)<br>=
Enter Meeting ID: 795795755<br><br></div>Adrian<br></div>

--f403045e79764889fa0550e04b3c--

