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From: Kjetil Oftedal <oftedal@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 11:46:23 +0200
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Subject: Re: [payload] draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08 info
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Hi,

I missed that when looking through. Sorry about that.

But there might still be need for clarification here on the definition of f=
ield.
With 3G-level B DL(dual link)/HD DL the SDI transport format is basically a
interlaced format. But the video format is likely to be 50-60Hz progressive=
.
(Two concurrent interlaced fields is merged to one progressive frame)

Since this draft is uses link/SDI raster level line numbers, it should
be specified
that it is the link level video format that defines whether or not this
is interlaced transport.

Best regards,
Kjetil Oftedal



On 29/03/2017, Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com> wrote:
> Since draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary- 00 the requirement has been:
>
> =E2=80=9CRTP packets MUST NOT include ANC data from multiple fields, and =
all RTP
> packets belonging to the same field MUST have the same timestamp.=E2=80=
=9D
>
> -Thomas
>
> --
> Thomas Edwards
> VP Engineering & Development
> FOX Networks Engineering and Operations
> thomas.edwards@fox.com
> Phone: +1.310.369.6696
> 10201 West Pico Blvd.
> Los Angeles, CA 90035
>
> On 3/28/17, 11:05 PM, "Kjetil Oftedal" <oftedal@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     On 29/03/2017, Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com> wrote:
>     > ,..
>     > But there is one I=E2=80=99d call a =E2=80=9Csubstantial=E2=80=9D c=
hange.  This an addition of
> two
>     > field bits (F) carved out of former reserved bits to optionally
> identify the
>     > field in interlaced signal interfaces.  This is done in a backwards
>     > compatible way with -07. If a -07 sender properly filled in those (=
F)
> bits
>     > with =E2=80=9800=E2=80=99, the field bits are not considered to car=
ry additional
>     > information.  Only if the first bit is a =E2=80=981=E2=80=99 would =
the second bit
> indicate
>     > the first or second interlaced field.
>     > ...
>
>     This change, due to the placement of the field bits, indirectly adds =
a
>     requirement
>     that all ANC packets within a RTP frame is from the same video field,
>     as it is not possible to specify the field bits per ANC packet.
>
>     This was not a requirement earlier, and for interlaced the field
>     polarity could be
>     discovered from the Line_Number field.
>
>     I believe this should at least be clarified in the RFC that it is now
> required
>     that all ANC packets in a RTP frame are from the same video field.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Kjetil Oftedal
>
>
>


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From: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 00:40:05 +1000
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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Any other comments on this draft? So far, we heard from Jean-Marie and
Victor supporting the draft. If you have any comments, please send them by
next Wed (April 12th).

@Thomas

I believe you volunteered to review this draft? Could you submit it by next
week?

Thanks.
-acbegen (co-chair)

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Ali C. Begen <ali.begen@networked.media>
wrote:

> WG,
>
> We are starting WGLC for the following draft. Please review the draft and
> send your comments to the list by March 13th. If you read the draft but you
> have no comments, say so as well.
>
> It is a short document, so should be a quick review.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq/
>
> -acbegen
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Any other comments on this draft? So far, we heard from Je=
an-Marie and Victor supporting the draft. If you have any comments, please =
send them by next Wed (April 12th).<div><br></div><div>@Thomas</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I believe you volunteered to review this draft? Could you subm=
it it by next week?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks.</div><div>-acbegen (co=
-chair)</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Ali C. Begen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@network=
ed.media</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">WG,<div><br></div><div>We are starting WGLC for the following draf=
t. Please review the draft and send your comments to the list by March 13th=
. If you read the draft but you have no comments, say so as well.</div><div=
><br></div><div>It is a short document, so should be a quick review.</div><=
div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2h=
q/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-payl=
oad-rtp-<wbr>vc2hq/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>-acbegen</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11419b86775010054c5840de--


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From: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 00:49:40 +1000
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Subject: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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WG,

We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some significant
changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.

Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your
comments to the list by April 19th.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08

Thanks.
-acbegen (co-chair)

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<div dir=3D"ltr">WG,<div><br></div><div>We will run another WGLC on this dr=
aft as there have been some significant changes since we ran the WGLC earli=
er.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Please have a look at the draft (at leas=
t to the diff) and send your comments to the list by April 19th.<br><div><b=
r></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-pa=
yload-rtp-ancillary-08">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-pa=
yload-rtp-ancillary-08</a><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks.</div>=
<div>-acbegen (co-chair)</div></div>

--001a11433f28c3d8c8054c586204--


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From: Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com>
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Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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From: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 08:06:50 +0000
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From nobody Wed Apr  5 02:42:28 2017
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From: James Barrett <James.Barrett@bbc.co.uk>
To: Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com>
CC: "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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From nobody Wed Apr  5 03:48:03 2017
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From: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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--_000_B1D49063AD5FBD4688F3EEDEC68B2017C37DE099bgb01xud1011_--


From nobody Wed Apr  5 03:50:35 2017
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Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads of the IETF.

        Title           : RTP Payload Format for VC-2 HQ Profile Video
        Author          : James P. Weaver
	Filename        : draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2017-04-05

Abstract:
   This memo describes an RTP Payload format for the High Quality (HQ)
   profile of SMPTE Standard ST 2042-1 known as VC-2.  This document
   describes the transport of HQ Profile VC-2 in RTP packets and has
   applications for low-complexity, high-bandwidth streaming of both
   lossless and lossy compressed video.

   The HQ profile of VC-2 is intended for low latency video compression
   (with latency potentially on the order of lines of video) at high
   data rates (with compression ratios on the order of 2:1 or 4:1).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Apr  5 03:56:52 2017
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From: James Barrett <James.Barrett@bbc.co.uk>
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt
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From: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:29:54 +1000
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Subject: Re: [payload] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt
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James, please hold on for further revision. Once all the comments are in
for wglc, you will have a chance to revise the draft.

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:56 PM, James Barrett <James.Barrett@bbc.co.uk>
wrote:

> Updated to take into account Thomas=E2=80=99 suggestions.
>
> --
> James P. Weaver (n=C3=A9 Barrett)
> Research Engineer
> BBC R&D North Lab,
> Floor 5 Dock House, MediaCity,
> M50 2LH
> Tel: +44(0)30 3040-9521
> e-mail: james.barrett@bbc.co.uk
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-
> 02.txt
> > Date: 5 April 2017 11:50:29 BST
> > To: James Weaver <james.barrett@bbc.co.uk>, "James P. Weaver" <
> james.barrett@bbc.co.uk>, <payload-chairs@ietf.org>
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by James P. Weaver and posted to the
> > IETF repository.
> >
> > Name:         draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq
> > Revision:     02
> > Title:                RTP Payload Format for VC-2 HQ Profile Video
> > Document date:        2017-04-04
> > Group:                payload
> > Pages:                19
> > URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
> drafts/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt
> > Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp=
-
> vc2hq/
> > Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02
> > Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/
> doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02
> > Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?
> url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02
> >
> > Abstract:
> >   This memo describes an RTP Payload format for the High Quality (HQ)
> >   profile of SMPTE Standard ST 2042-1 known as VC-2.  This document
> >   describes the transport of HQ Profile VC-2 in RTP packets and has
> >   applications for low-complexity, high-bandwidth streaming of both
> >   lossless and lossy compressed video.
> >
> >   The HQ profile of VC-2 is intended for low latency video compression
> >   (with latency potentially on the order of lines of video) at high
> >   data rates (with compression ratios on the order of 2:1 or 4:1).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> payload mailing list
> payload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">James, please hold on for further revision. Once all the c=
omments are in for wglc, you will have a chance to revise the draft.</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 5, 201=
7 at 8:56 PM, James Barrett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:James.B=
arrett@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">James.Barrett@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Updated to take into account Thoma=
s=E2=80=99 suggestions.<br>
<br>
--<br>
James P. Weaver (n=C3=A9 Barrett)<br>
Research Engineer<br>
BBC R&amp;D North Lab,<br>
Floor 5 Dock House, MediaCity,<br>
M50 2LH<br>
Tel: <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%280%2930%203040-9521" value=3D"+443030409521">+44=
(0)30 3040-9521</a><br>
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:james.barrett@bbc.co.uk">james.barrett@bbc.co.uk<=
/a><br>
<br>
&gt; Begin forwarded message:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-<wb=
r>02.txt<br>
&gt; Date: 5 April 2017 11:50:29 BST<br>
&gt; To: James Weaver &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.barrett@bbc.co.uk">james.=
barrett@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;, &quot;James P. Weaver&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:james.barrett@bbc.co.uk">james.barrett@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:payload-chairs@ietf.org">payload-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-<wbr>02.txt<br>
&gt; has been successfully submitted by James P. Weaver and posted to the<b=
r>
&gt; IETF repository.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq<br=
>
&gt; Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A002<br>
&gt; Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RTP Payl=
oad Format for VC-2 HQ Profile Video<br>
&gt; Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2017-04-04<br>
&gt; Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 payload<=
br>
&gt; Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 19<br>
&gt; URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02.txt" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-ietf=
-payload-rtp-<wbr>vc2hq-02.txt</a><br>
&gt; Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr>v=
c2hq/</a><br>
&gt; Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-<wbr>02</a><b=
r>
&gt; Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-<=
wbr>rtp-vc2hq-02</a><br>
&gt; Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.i=
etf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?<wbr>url2=3Ddraft-ietf-paylo=
ad-rtp-<wbr>vc2hq-02</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo describes an RTP Payload format for the High Qua=
lity (HQ)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0profile of SMPTE Standard ST 2042-1 known as VC-2.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0describes the transport of HQ Profile VC-2 in RTP packets =
and has<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0applications for low-complexity, high-bandwidth streaming =
of both<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0lossless and lossy compressed video.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The HQ profile of VC-2 is intended for low latency video c=
ompression<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(with latency potentially on the order of lines of video) =
at high<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0data rates (with compression ratios on the order of 2:1 or=
 4:1).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission<br>
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The IETF Secretariat<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
payload mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org">payload@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/payload</a><=
br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0d1076277220054c69b6e4--


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From: Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com>
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Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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From: Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com>
To: "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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From: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:56:54 +1000
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To: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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--94eb2c1b40da5f9f30054c76a9be
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Hi John,

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:47 PM, John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
wrote:

> Here are some comments:
>
>
>
> A revised version of the VC-2 specification SMPTE ST 2042-1 has reached
> Draft Publication status and is likely to be published in the next 2 or 3
> months.  Given that section 4.3 of the memo discusses items that are
> changed in the new version of VC-2, I suggest that the memo is updated to
> reflect the new version.  I am not sure of the timescale for progression =
to
> RFC but I would suggest delaying this if necessary until the SMPTE docume=
nt
> is published.
>

Depending on the external parties always creates concerns and also some
issues. So, if the final spec due date is that close, I think we better
wait for it and then finish the RTP work. Does anybody object to this?


>  In section 4.1, the description of the Timestamp field says it
> =E2=80=9Ccorresponds to the sampling instant of the coded picture=E2=80=
=9D.  This will not
> be the case if source of the RTP stream is replayed video.  It also may n=
ot
> be the case if the input to the RTP encoder is slightly delayed with
> respect to image capture (highly likely) and/or the interface does not
> provide the capture time.  I suggest re-wording this section.
>

How the RTP timestamps is used, it is a bit different story. I see that
Thomas replied to this as well. The payload drafts are flexible in terms of
how they can use the timestamps. So, if there is any requirement from the
SMPTE folks on this, we should use that one in this draft. Is there?


>  Also in section 4.1, description of Timestamp, I suggest adding: =E2=80=
=9CIf the
> required timestamp does not correspond to an integer value of the clock,
> e.g. when the frame or field rate is 60000/1001, the value SHALL be
> truncated to the next lowest integer.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Section 5, Congestion control, says it SHALL be in accordance with RFC355=
0
> but all that RFC3550 says is that congestion control SHOULD be defined in
> each RTP profile.  The section also makes reference to an Internet Draft
> and I believe this is not allowed.  Congestion control is not really a
> matter for Payload Format Specifications and I suggest this section is
> deleted.
>

See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-howto-14#section-7.3

Essentially this section has to exist, what goes in there depends on the
payload format and how it is used (or how it should not be used).

-acbegen


>
> In section 6.1 under =E2=80=9Csecurity considerations=E2=80=9D, I suggest=
 changing the
> text to =E2=80=9CPlease see section 8 of this memo".
>
>
>
> In Normative References, RFC3551 is listed but it is not a normative
> reference, it is only referred to as an example.
>
>
>
> In Normative References, as noted earlier, reference to
> I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers is inappropriate and will not be
> needed if the Congestion Control section is removed.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> John Fletcher
>
>
>
> *From:* payload [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ali C.
> Begen
> *Sent:* 04 April 2017 15:40
> *To:* payload@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
>
>
>
> Any other comments on this draft? So far, we heard from Jean-Marie and
> Victor supporting the draft. If you have any comments, please send them b=
y
> next Wed (April 12th).
>
>
>
> @Thomas
>
>
>
> I believe you volunteered to review this draft? Could you submit it by
> next week?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> -acbegen (co-chair)
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Ali C. Begen <ali.begen@networked.media>
> wrote:
>
> WG,
>
>
>
> We are starting WGLC for the following draft. Please review the draft and
> send your comments to the list by March 13th. If you read the draft but y=
ou
> have no comments, say so as well.
>
>
>
> It is a short document, so should be a quick review.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq/
>
>
>
> -acbegen
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain persona=
l
> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
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> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>

--94eb2c1b40da5f9f30054c76a9be
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi John,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:47 PM, John Fletcher <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletcher=
@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"EN-GB">
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-86574455646768535609eb1114d-2ea8-4468-873c-24a5756a619=
4"></p>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Here are some comments:<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">A revised version of the VC-2 specification =
SMPTE ST 2042-1 has reached Draft Publication status and is likely to be pu=
blished in the next 2 or 3 months.=C2=A0 Given
 that section 4.3 of the memo discusses items that are changed in the new v=
ersion of VC-2, I suggest that the memo is updated to reflect the new versi=
on.=C2=A0 I am not sure of the timescale for progression to RFC but I would=
 suggest delaying this if necessary until
 the SMPTE document is published.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>Depending on the external parties always creates concerns and=
 also some issues. So, if the final spec due date is that close, I think we=
 better wait for it and then finish the RTP work. Does anybody object to th=
is?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div lang=3D"EN-GB"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560WordSection1=
"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">In section 4.1, =
the description of the Timestamp field says it =E2=80=9Ccorresponds to the =
sampling instant of the coded picture=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 This will not be the =
case if source
 of the RTP stream is replayed video.=C2=A0 It also may not be the case if =
the input to the RTP encoder is slightly delayed with respect to image capt=
ure (highly likely) and/or the interface does not provide the capture time.=
=C2=A0 I suggest re-wording this section.</span></p></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>How the RTP timestamps is used, it is a bit different=
 story. I see that Thomas replied to this as well. The payload drafts are f=
lexible in terms of how they can use the timestamps. So, if there is any re=
quirement from the SMPTE folks on this, we should use that one in this draf=
t. Is there?</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-865744556467685356=
0WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Also in section =
4.1, description of Timestamp, I suggest adding: =E2=80=9CIf the required t=
imestamp does not correspond to an integer value of the clock, e.g. when
 the frame or field rate is 60000/1001, the value SHALL be truncated to the=
 next lowest integer.=E2=80=9D</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Section 5, Congestion control, says it SHALL=
 be in accordance with RFC3550 but all that RFC3550 says is that congestion=
 control SHOULD be defined in each RTP
 profile.=C2=A0 The section also makes reference to an Internet Draft and I=
 believe this is not allowed.=C2=A0 Congestion control is not really a matt=
er for Payload Format Specifications and I suggest this section is deleted.=
</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>See=C2=A0<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-howto-14#section-7.3">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-howto-14#section-7.3</a><=
/div><div><br></div><div>Essentially this section has to exist, what goes i=
n there depends on the payload format and how it is used (or how it should =
not be used).</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>-acbegen</div><div><br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-GB"><div class=
=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In section 6.1 under =E2=80=9Csecurity consi=
derations=E2=80=9D, I suggest changing the text to =E2=80=9CPlease see sect=
ion 8 of this memo&quot;.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In Normative References, RFC3551 is listed b=
ut it is not a normative reference, it is only referred to as an example.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In Normative References, as noted earlier, r=
eference to I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-<wbr>breakers is inappropriate and=
 will not be needed if the Congestion Control
 section is removed.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">John Fletcher<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"> payload [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:payload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload-bounces@ietf.<wbr>o=
rg</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ali C. Begen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2017 15:40<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-<wbr>01=
<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any other comments on this draft? So far, we heard f=
rom Jean-Marie and Victor supporting the draft. If you have any comments, p=
lease send them by next Wed (April 12th).<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@Thomas<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe you volunteered to review this draft? Coul=
d you submit it by next week?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-acbegen (co-chair)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Ali C. Begen &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@netw=
orked.media</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are starting WGLC for the following draft. Please=
 review the draft and send your comments to the list by March 13th. If you =
read the draft but you have no comments, say so as well.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is a short document, so should be a quick review.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-payload-rtp-vc2hq/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>=
doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr>vc2hq/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-acbegen<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<p></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-86574455646768535609eb1114d-2ea8-4468-873c-24a5756a619=
4">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-86574455646768535609eb1114d-2ea8-4468-873c-24a5756a619=
4">----------------------------<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560il"=
>bbc</span>.<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560il">co</span>.<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560il">uk</span></a><br>
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560il">BBC</span> unless specifical=
ly stated.<br>
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.<br>
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
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Please note that the <span class=3D"gmail-m_-8657445564676853560il">BBC</sp=
an> monitors e-mails sent or received.<br>
Further communication will signify your consent to this.</font></font></fon=
t></font></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-86574455646768535609eb1114d-2ea8-4468-873c-24a5756a619=
4">---------------------</p>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1b40da5f9f30054c76a9be--


From nobody Thu Apr  6 03:55:23 2017
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From: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
To: "'Ali C. Begen'" <ali.begen@networked.media>
CC: "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-vc2hq-01
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--_000_B1D49063AD5FBD4688F3EEDEC68B2017C37F572Dbgb01xud1011_--


From nobody Wed Apr 19 19:53:42 2017
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From: Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com>
To: "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08 info
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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 02:53:34 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/payload/c-1BbrKiRzAAfYS94sP_VbPgIvA>
Subject: Re: [payload] draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08 info
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From: Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com>
To: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
Thread-Index: AQHSrVK2BScxrYPnSUy64oxn8WXlI6G2bIIAgBb2JoA=
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 05:45:32 +0000
Message-ID: <8EFE3F7E-3DE8-4464-8AC3-447C54B07296@fox.com>
References: <CAA4Mczu95KgfV+uWgcEvnqHUYGDOptF7_yfD950Z7SZZ+YNuxg@mail.gmail.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7AE47A@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD7AE47A@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/payload/zTmS1zmp0EM2Uf2-xRHhOqIf35c>
Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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From: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:22:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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From: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
To: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>, "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 17:21:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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From: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>, "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:26:59 +0000
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References: <CAA4Mczu95KgfV+uWgcEvnqHUYGDOptF7_yfD950Z7SZZ+YNuxg@mail.gmail.com> <B1D49063AD5FBD4688F3EEDEC68B2017C380A3D9@bgb01xud1011>, <4ACA036C-5580-42D2-8003-95B45B9248E7@stewe.org>
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:39:57 -0400
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To: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
Cc: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>, "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>,  "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:26 AM, John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
wrote:

> This memo is likely to be used as a normative reference in a SMPTE
> standard.  In SMPTE documents, the normative words are not capitalised.
> Therefore I think it is best that normative words are only used in a
> normative context, regardless of the capitalisation.
>
[sb]In my opinion that's not an IETF issue.  Clarity on what is normative
and what isn't normative is.  RFC2119-update is an option (and future
payload RFCs will be using it's conventions anyway).  So I'm with Stephan
here. [/sb]

>
> John
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Stephan Wenger [stewe@stewe.org]
> *Sent:* 20 April 2017 18:21
> *To:* John Fletcher; Ali C. Begen; payload@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>
> John,
> With the soon-to-be RFC https://datatracker.ietf.
> org/doc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update/ (which clarifies that only
> CAPITALIZED keywords carry normative weight), your various points about t=
he
> use of normative language in a non-normative context seem moot, no?  No
> language gymnastics needed.  Seems to me that ancillary draft authors had
> that change in mind=E2=80=A6  or is your comment directed to a user commu=
nity where
> capitalization of keywords does not matter (like in the IETF back in the
> days)?
> In order to get that unambiguously right, the authors may want to change
> the RFC to RFC2119 to the rfc2119-update draft.  That draft shouldn=E2=80=
=99t be
> too long in the RFC editor=E2=80=99s queue anymore, so there ought to be =
no
> additional delay.
> Stephan
>
> From: payload <payload-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of John Fletcher <
> John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
> Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 03:22
> To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <
> payload@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>
> Apologies for slightly late comments but ...
>
> In section 2.1, definition of "C" bit, HD signals are mentioned but not
> UHD.  I think the definition really depends on whether the SDI interface
> uses separate data channels for luma and color-diff, so perhaps the
> specification could be re-worded along those lines.  At the very least, s=
ay
> "HD and UHD signals".
>
> Specifications about RTP timestamp clock rate appear in section 3.1 as
> part of the media format parameters but I think these should be in sectio=
n
> 2 as part of the timestamp definition.  Section 3.1 should just say that
> the Rate parameter is required.
>
> Section 1, Introduction, uses normative word "should" in "It should be
> noted that".  I suggest changing to "Note that".
>
> In section 3.1, the normative word "may" is used in "implementers may
> care" and "may not care".  It's not appropriate to give implementers
> permission or to forbid them from caring.  I suggest changing to "might".
>
> In section 3.1, "those that must interoperate with", I suggest deleting
> "must".
>
> In section 4, "the ancillary data stream may potentially contain", sugges=
t
> changing to "might" to indicate possibility rather than permission.
>
> In section 4.1, the normative word "may" is used in "implementers may wis=
h
> to".  It's not appropriate to give implementers permission to wish.  I
> suggest deleting "to wish".
>
> In section 5, again we have "may with", I think meant to be "may wish".  =
I
> suggest changing to "might wish" in this case.  Other uses of "may" in th=
is
> section seem fine but should be capitalised.
>
> In section 7, "It may still be a good idea", suggest changing "may" to
> "might".
>
> In section 7, "receivers should take care to", I suggest deleting "take
> care to".
>
> Some uses of "required" in the memo are not specifying normative
> requirements, suggest re-wording or changing to "needed".
>
> Several occurrences of "may", "must", "should", "required" and "optional"
> are not capitalised.
>
> Regards,
> John
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* payload [payload-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Ali C. Begen [
> ali.begen@networked.media]
> *Sent:* 04 April 2017 15:49
> *To:* payload@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>
> WG,
>
> We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some significan=
t
> changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.
>
> Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your
> comments to the list by April 19th.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>
> Thanks.
> -acbegen (co-chair)
>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain persona=
l
> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain persona=
l
> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> payload mailing list
> payload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>
>

--001a11c027608f8153054ded1883
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:26 AM, John Fletcher <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletcher@bb=
c.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432"></p=
>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt=
">This memo is likely to be used as a normative reference in a SMPTE standa=
rd.=C2=A0 In SMPTE documents, the normative words are not capitalised.=C2=
=A0 Therefore I think it is best that normative
 words are only used in a normative context, regardless of the capitalisati=
on.<br></div></div></blockquote><div>[sb]In my opinion that&#39;s not an IE=
TF issue.=C2=A0 Clarity on what is normative and what isn&#39;t normative i=
s.=C2=A0 RFC2119-update is an option (and future payload RFCs will be using=
 it&#39;s conventions anyway).=C2=A0 So I&#39;m with Stephan here. [/sb]</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:=
rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><div style=3D"dir=
ection:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt">
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:Times New Roman;color:#000000;font-size:16px">
<hr>
<div id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726divRpF413723" style=3D"direction:ltr"><fon=
t face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Stephan Wenger =
[<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a>]<=
br>
<b>Sent:</b> 20 April 2017 18:21<br>
<b>To:</b> John Fletcher; Ali C. Begen; <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr>ancillar=
y-08<br>
</div></div></font><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>John,</div>
<div>With the soon-to-be RFC=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.<=
wbr>org/doc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-<wbr>update</a>/ (which clarifies that only=
 CAPITALIZED keywords carry normative weight), your
 various points about the use of normative language in a non-normative cont=
ext seem moot, no?=C2=A0 No language gymnastics needed.=C2=A0 Seems to me t=
hat ancillary draft authors had that change in mind=E2=80=A6 =C2=A0or is yo=
ur comment directed to a user community where capitalization
 of keywords does not matter (like in the IETF back in the days)?</div>
<div>In order to get that unambiguously right, the authors may want to chan=
ge the RFC to RFC2119 to the rfc2119-update draft.=C2=A0 That draft shouldn=
=E2=80=99t be too long in the RFC editor=E2=80=99s queue anymore, so there =
ought to be no additional delay.</div>
<div>Stephan</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726MAC_OUTLOOK_SIGNATURE"></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:12pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;border-bottom:medium none;border-left:medium none;padding-bottom:0in;padd=
ing-left:0in;padding-right:0in;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;border-right:me=
dium none;padding-top:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>payload &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:payload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of John Fletcher &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk=
" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 0=
3:22<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Ali C. Begen&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@netw=
orked.media</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">payload@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [payload] WGLC for dra=
ft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr>ancillary-08<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd"></p=
>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:Tahoma;color:#000000;font-size:10pt=
">Apologies for slightly late comments but ...<br>
<br>
In section 2.1, definition of &quot;C&quot; bit, HD signals are mentioned b=
ut not UHD.=C2=A0 I think the definition really depends on whether the SDI =
interface uses separate data channels for luma and color-diff, so perhaps t=
he specification could be re-worded along those
 lines.=C2=A0 At the very least, say &quot;HD and UHD signals&quot;.<br>
<br>
Specifications about RTP timestamp clock rate appear in section 3.1 as part=
 of the media format parameters but I think these should be in section 2 as=
 part of the timestamp definition.=C2=A0 Section 3.1 should just say that t=
he Rate parameter is required.<br>
<br>
Section 1, Introduction, uses normative word &quot;should&quot; in &quot;It=
 should be noted that&quot;.=C2=A0 I suggest changing to &quot;Note that&qu=
ot;.<br>
<br>
In section 3.1, the normative word &quot;may&quot; is used in &quot;impleme=
nters may care&quot; and &quot;may not care&quot;.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not appro=
priate to give implementers permission or to forbid them from caring.=C2=A0=
 I suggest changing to &quot;might&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 3.1, &quot;those that must interoperate with&quot;, I suggest de=
leting &quot;must&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 4, &quot;the ancillary data stream may potentially contain&quot;=
, suggest changing to &quot;might&quot; to indicate possibility rather than=
 permission.<br>
<br>
In section 4.1, the normative word &quot;may&quot; is used in &quot;impleme=
nters may wish to&quot;.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not appropriate to give implementer=
s permission to wish.=C2=A0 I suggest deleting &quot;to wish&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 5, again we have &quot;may with&quot;, I think meant to be &quot=
;may wish&quot;.=C2=A0 I suggest changing to &quot;might wish&quot; in this=
 case.=C2=A0 Other uses of &quot;may&quot; in this section seem fine but sh=
ould be capitalised.<br>
<br>
In section 7, &quot;It may still be a good idea&quot;, suggest changing &qu=
ot;may&quot; to &quot;might&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 7, &quot;receivers should take care to&quot;, I suggest deleting=
 &quot;take care to&quot;.<br>
<br>
Some uses of &quot;required&quot; in the memo are not specifying normative =
requirements, suggest re-wording or changing to &quot;needed&quot;.<br>
<br>
Several occurrences of &quot;may&quot;, &quot;must&quot;, &quot;should&quot=
;, &quot;required&quot; and &quot;optional&quot; are not capitalised.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:Times New Roman;color:#000000;font-size:16px">
<hr>
<div id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726divRpF121431" style=3D"direction:ltr"><fon=
t face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> payload [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>] on behalf of Ali C. Begen [<a href=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked=
.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@networked.media</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2017 15:49<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr>ancillary-08=
<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">WG,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some signifi=
cant changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your c=
omments to the list by April 19th.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rt=
p-ancillary-08" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/htm=
l/draft-ietf-payload-<wbr>rtp-ancillary-08</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks.</div>
<div>-acbegen (co-chair)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">=C2=
=A0</p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">---=
-------------------------<br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">bbc</=
span>.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">co</span>.<span class=3D"m_-=
3317155921161531726il">uk</span></a><br>
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the
<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> unless specifically sta=
ted.<br>
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.<br>
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
 on it and notify the sender immediately.<br>
Please note that the <span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> mo=
nitors e-mails sent or received.<br>
Further communication will signify your consent to this.</font></font></fon=
t></font></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">---=
------------------</p>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div></div></div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432">=C2=
=A0</p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432">---=
-------------------------<br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><br>
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">bbc</=
span>.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">co</span>.<span class=3D"m_-=
3317155921161531726il">uk</span></a><br>
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the
<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> unless specifically sta=
ted.<br>
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.<br>
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
 on it and notify the sender immediately.<br>
Please note that the <span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> mo=
nitors e-mails sent or received.<br>
Further communication will signify your consent to this.</font></font></fon=
t></font></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432">---=
------------------</p>
</div></div></div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
payload mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org">payload@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/payload</a><=
br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c027608f8153054ded1883--


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From: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
To: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
CC: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>, "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
Thread-Index: AQHSrVK4tLxZKOBdQEqw2cWzz9Q2fKHOEj1HgAB3VACAAS306IAFIKaAgAARbUw=
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If RFC2119-update is in force and referred to in the payload-rtp-ancillary =
memo, that would be OK.  But the current memo is using the old RFC2119.

I agree that clarity on what is normative and what isn't is the important t=
hing.  One way to achieve that, and a way that will help readers more famil=
iar with documents from other SDOs, is only to use the normative words in n=
ormative context.

John
________________________________
From: Stephen Botzko [stephen.botzko@gmail.com]
Sent: 24 April 2017 18:39
To: John Fletcher
Cc: Stephan Wenger; Ali C. Begen; payload@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08



On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:26 AM, John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk<mai=
lto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>> wrote:

This memo is likely to be used as a normative reference in a SMPTE standard=
.  In SMPTE documents, the normative words are not capitalised.  Therefore =
I think it is best that normative words are only used in a normative contex=
t, regardless of the capitalisation.
[sb]In my opinion that's not an IETF issue.  Clarity on what is normative a=
nd what isn't normative is.  RFC2119-update is an option (and future payloa=
d RFCs will be using it's conventions anyway).  So I'm with Stephan here. [=
/sb]

John

________________________________
From: Stephan Wenger [stewe@stewe.org<mailto:stewe@stewe.org>]
Sent: 20 April 2017 18:21
To: John Fletcher; Ali C. Begen; payload@ietf.org<mailto:payload@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08

John,
With the soon-to-be RFC https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-leiba-rfc211=
9-update/ (which clarifies that only CAPITALIZED keywords carry normative w=
eight), your various points about the use of normative language in a non-no=
rmative context seem moot, no?  No language gymnastics needed.  Seems to me=
 that ancillary draft authors had that change in mind=85  or is your commen=
t directed to a user community where capitalization of keywords does not ma=
tter (like in the IETF back in the days)?
In order to get that unambiguously right, the authors may want to change th=
e RFC to RFC2119 to the rfc2119-update draft.  That draft shouldn=92t be to=
o long in the RFC editor=92s queue anymore, so there ought to be no additio=
nal delay.
Stephan

From: payload <payload-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org>> o=
n behalf of John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk<mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc=
.co.uk>>
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 03:22
To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media<mailto:ali.begen@networked.me=
dia>>, "payload@ietf.org<mailto:payload@ietf.org>" <payload@ietf.org<mailto=
:payload@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08


Apologies for slightly late comments but ...

In section 2.1, definition of "C" bit, HD signals are mentioned but not UHD=
.  I think the definition really depends on whether the SDI interface uses =
separate data channels for luma and color-diff, so perhaps the specificatio=
n could be re-worded along those lines.  At the very least, say "HD and UHD=
 signals".

Specifications about RTP timestamp clock rate appear in section 3.1 as part=
 of the media format parameters but I think these should be in section 2 as=
 part of the timestamp definition.  Section 3.1 should just say that the Ra=
te parameter is required.

Section 1, Introduction, uses normative word "should" in "It should be note=
d that".  I suggest changing to "Note that".

In section 3.1, the normative word "may" is used in "implementers may care"=
 and "may not care".  It's not appropriate to give implementers permission =
or to forbid them from caring.  I suggest changing to "might".

In section 3.1, "those that must interoperate with", I suggest deleting "mu=
st".

In section 4, "the ancillary data stream may potentially contain", suggest =
changing to "might" to indicate possibility rather than permission.

In section 4.1, the normative word "may" is used in "implementers may wish =
to".  It's not appropriate to give implementers permission to wish.  I sugg=
est deleting "to wish".

In section 5, again we have "may with", I think meant to be "may wish".  I =
suggest changing to "might wish" in this case.  Other uses of "may" in this=
 section seem fine but should be capitalised.

In section 7, "It may still be a good idea", suggest changing "may" to "mig=
ht".

In section 7, "receivers should take care to", I suggest deleting "take car=
e to".

Some uses of "required" in the memo are not specifying normative requiremen=
ts, suggest re-wording or changing to "needed".

Several occurrences of "may", "must", "should", "required" and "optional" a=
re not capitalised.

Regards,
John

________________________________
From: payload [payload-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org>] o=
n behalf of Ali C. Begen [ali.begen@networked.media<mailto:ali.begen@networ=
ked.media>]
Sent: 04 April 2017 15:49
To: payload@ietf.org<mailto:payload@ietf.org>
Subject: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08

WG,

We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some significant =
changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.

Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your commen=
ts to the list by April 19th.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08

Thanks.
-acbegen (co-chair)



----------------------------

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If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
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Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload





----------------------------

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This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
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--_000_B1D49063AD5FBD4688F3EEDEC68B2017C380BBE8bgb01xud1011_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML dir=3D"ltr">
<HEAD><!-- Template generated by Exclaimer Mail Disclaimers on 06:53:55 Mon=
day, 24 April 2017 -->
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" />
<style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle">P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:=
0;}</style>
</HEAD>

<BODY fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<P class=3Db5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b>
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">If RFC2119-update is in force and referred to in the payload-rtp-anc=
illary memo, that would be OK.&nbsp; But the current memo is using the old =
RFC2119.<br />
<br />
I agree that clarity on what is normative and what isn't is the important t=
hing.&nbsp; One way to achieve that, and a way that will help readers more =
familiar with documents from other SDOs, is only to use the normative words=
 in normative context.<br />
<br />
John<br />
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" />
<div id=3D"divRpF518050" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Stephen Botzko [stephen.botzko@gmai=
l.com]<br />
<b>Sent:</b> 24 April 2017 18:39<br />
<b>To:</b> John Fletcher<br />
<b>Cc:</b> Stephan Wenger; Ali C. Begen; payload@ietf.org<br />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08<=
br />
</font><br />
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br />
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:26 AM, John Fletcher <=
span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletc=
her@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br />
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432"></p=
>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:1=
0pt">This memo is likely to be used as a normative reference in a SMPTE sta=
ndard.&nbsp; In SMPTE documents, the normative words are not capitalised.&n=
bsp; Therefore I think it is best that normative
 words are only used in a normative context, regardless of the capitalisati=
on.<br />
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>[sb]In my opinion that's not an IETF issue.&nbsp; Clarity on what is n=
ormative and what isn't normative is.&nbsp; RFC2119-update is an option (an=
d future payload RFCs will be using it's conventions anyway).&nbsp; So I'm =
with Stephan here. [/sb]</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div style=3D"direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:1=
0pt"><br />
John<br />
<br />
<div style=3D"font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:16px">
<hr />
<div id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726divRpF413723" style=3Ddirection:ltr><font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Stephan Wenger [<=
a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" target=3D"_blank">stewe@stewe.org</a>]<br=
 />
<b>Sent:</b> 20 April 2017 18:21<br />
<b>To:</b> John Fletcher; Ali C. Begen; <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">
payload@ietf.org</a>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr />ancill=
ary-08<br />
</div>
</div>
</font><br />
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>John,</div>
<div>With the soon-to-be RFC&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.<=
wbr />org/doc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-<wbr />update</a>/ (which clarifies that =
only CAPITALIZED keywords carry normative weight),
 your various points about the use of normative language in a non-normative=
 context seem moot, no?&nbsp; No language gymnastics needed.&nbsp; Seems to=
 me that ancillary draft authors had that change in mind=E2=80=A6 &nbsp;or =
is your comment directed to a user community where capitalization
 of keywords does not matter (like in the IETF back in the days)?</div>
<div>In order to get that unambiguously right, the authors may want to chan=
ge the RFC to RFC2119 to the rfc2119-update draft.&nbsp; That draft shouldn=
=E2=80=99t be too long in the RFC editor=E2=80=99s queue anymore, so there =
ought to be no additional delay.</div>
<div>Stephan</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726MAC_OUTLOOK_SIGNATURE"></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<span id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:12pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; border-bottom:medium none; border-left:medium none; padding-bottom:0i=
n; padding-left:0in; padding-right:0in; border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid; borde=
r-right:medium none; padding-top:3pt">
<span style=3Dfont-weight:bold>From: </span>payload &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
ayload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
 on behalf of John Fletcher &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;<br />
<span style=3Dfont-weight:bold>Date: </span>Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 03:=
22<br />
<span style=3Dfont-weight:bold>To: </span>&quot;Ali C. Begen&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@networ=
ked.media</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">payload@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br />
<span style=3Dfont-weight:bold>Subject: </span>Re: [payload] WGLC for draft=
-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr />ancillary-08<br />
</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd"></p=
>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000; font-size:1=
0pt">Apologies for slightly late comments but ...<br />
<br />
In section 2.1, definition of &quot;C&quot; bit, HD signals are mentioned b=
ut not UHD.&nbsp; I think the definition really depends on whether the SDI =
interface uses separate data channels for luma and color-diff, so perhaps t=
he specification could be re-worded along those
 lines.&nbsp; At the very least, say &quot;HD and UHD signals&quot;.<br />
<br />
Specifications about RTP timestamp clock rate appear in section 3.1 as part=
 of the media format parameters but I think these should be in section 2 as=
 part of the timestamp definition.&nbsp; Section 3.1 should just say that t=
he Rate parameter is required.<br />
<br />
Section 1, Introduction, uses normative word &quot;should&quot; in &quot;It=
 should be noted that&quot;.&nbsp; I suggest changing to &quot;Note that&qu=
ot;.<br />
<br />
In section 3.1, the normative word &quot;may&quot; is used in &quot;impleme=
nters may care&quot; and &quot;may not care&quot;.&nbsp; It's not appropria=
te to give implementers permission or to forbid them from caring.&nbsp; I s=
uggest changing to &quot;might&quot;.<br />
<br />
In section 3.1, &quot;those that must interoperate with&quot;, I suggest de=
leting &quot;must&quot;.<br />
<br />
In section 4, &quot;the ancillary data stream may potentially contain&quot;=
, suggest changing to &quot;might&quot; to indicate possibility rather than=
 permission.<br />
<br />
In section 4.1, the normative word &quot;may&quot; is used in &quot;impleme=
nters may wish to&quot;.&nbsp; It's not appropriate to give implementers pe=
rmission to wish.&nbsp; I suggest deleting &quot;to wish&quot;.<br />
<br />
In section 5, again we have &quot;may with&quot;, I think meant to be &quot=
;may wish&quot;.&nbsp; I suggest changing to &quot;might wish&quot; in this=
 case.&nbsp; Other uses of &quot;may&quot; in this section seem fine but sh=
ould be capitalised.<br />
<br />
In section 7, &quot;It may still be a good idea&quot;, suggest changing &qu=
ot;may&quot; to &quot;might&quot;.<br />
<br />
In section 7, &quot;receivers should take care to&quot;, I suggest deleting=
 &quot;take care to&quot;.<br />
<br />
Some uses of &quot;required&quot; in the memo are not specifying normative =
requirements, suggest re-wording or changing to &quot;needed&quot;.<br />
<br />
Several occurrences of &quot;may&quot;, &quot;must&quot;, &quot;should&quot=
;, &quot;required&quot; and &quot;optional&quot; are not capitalised.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
John<br />
<br />
<div style=3D"font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:16px">
<hr />
<div id=3D"m_-3317155921161531726divRpF121431" style=3Ddirection:ltr><font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> payload [<a href=
=3D"mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload-bounces@ietf=
.org</a>] on behalf of Ali C. Begen [<a href=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked.=
media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@networked.media</a>]<br />
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2017 15:49<br />
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload@ie=
tf.org</a><br />
<b>Subject:</b> [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr />ancillary-=
08<br />
</font><br />
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">WG,
<div><br />
</div>
<div>We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some signifi=
cant changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div>Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your c=
omments to the list by April 19th.<br />
<div><br />
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rt=
p-ancillary-08" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr />doc/h=
tml/draft-ietf-payload-<wbr />rtp-ancillary-08</a><br />
</div>
</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div>Thanks.</div>
<div>-acbegen (co-chair)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">&nb=
sp;</p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">---=
-------------------------<br />
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><br />
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">bbc</=
span>.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">co</span>.<span class=3D"m_-=
3317155921161531726il">uk</span></a><br />
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the
<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> unless specifically sta=
ted.<br />
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.<br />
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
 on it and notify the sender immediately.<br />
Please note that the <span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> mo=
nitors e-mails sent or received.<br />
Further communication will signify your consent to this.</font></font></fon=
t></font></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">---=
------------------</p>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<p></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432">&nb=
sp;</p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432">---=
-------------------------<br />
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><br />
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">bbc</=
span>.<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">co</span>.<span class=3D"m_-=
3317155921161531726il">uk</span></a><br />
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the
<span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> unless specifically sta=
ted.<br />
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.<br />
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
 on it and notify the sender immediately.<br />
Please note that the <span class=3D"m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</span> mo=
nitors e-mails sent or received.<br />
Further communication will signify your consent to this.</font></font></fon=
t></font></p>
<p class=3D"m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-4441-b188-6160239f8432">---=
------------------</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br />
______________________________<wbr />_________________<br />
payload mailing list<br />
<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a><=
br />
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" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr />listinfo/payload</a=
><br />
<br />
</blockquote>
</div>
<br />
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</P>
<P class=3Db5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3Db5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b>---------------------------=
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From: Stephen Botzko <stephen.botzko@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:06:44 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMC7SJ4PBg0Hs2o=n5GLrjKu=bfyRc0QphV_pZTCaH7REshkdw@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
Cc: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>, "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>,  "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
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On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:53 PM, John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
wrote:

> If RFC2119-update is in force and referred to in the payload-rtp-ancillar=
y
> memo, that would be OK.  But the current memo is using the old RFC2119.
>
I think Stephan did suggest referencing the draft RFC2119bis.

>
> I agree that clarity on what is normative and what isn't is the important
> thing.  One way to achieve that, and a way that will help readers more
> familiar with documents from other SDOs, is only to use the normative wor=
ds
> in normative context.
>
I agree it is one way forward, Stephan's is another.

One can of course do both, they are not conflicting.

John
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Stephen Botzko [stephen.botzko@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 24 April 2017 18:39
> *To:* John Fletcher
> *Cc:* Stephan Wenger; Ali C. Begen; payload@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:26 AM, John Fletcher <John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> This memo is likely to be used as a normative reference in a SMPTE
>> standard.  In SMPTE documents, the normative words are not capitalised.
>> Therefore I think it is best that normative words are only used in a
>> normative context, regardless of the capitalisation.
>>
> [sb]In my opinion that's not an IETF issue.  Clarity on what is normative
> and what isn't normative is.  RFC2119-update is an option (and future
> payload RFCs will be using it's conventions anyway).  So I'm with Stephan
> here. [/sb]
>
>>
>> John
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Stephan Wenger [stewe@stewe.org]
>> *Sent:* 20 April 2017 18:21
>> *To:* John Fletcher; Ali C. Begen; payload@ietf.org
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>>
>> John,
>> With the soon-to-be RFC https://datatracker.ietf.o
>> rg/doc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update/ (which clarifies that only
>> CAPITALIZED keywords carry normative weight), your various points about =
the
>> use of normative language in a non-normative context seem moot, no?  No
>> language gymnastics needed.  Seems to me that ancillary draft authors ha=
d
>> that change in mind=E2=80=A6  or is your comment directed to a user comm=
unity where
>> capitalization of keywords does not matter (like in the IETF back in the
>> days)?
>> In order to get that unambiguously right, the authors may want to change
>> the RFC to RFC2119 to the rfc2119-update draft.  That draft shouldn=E2=
=80=99t be
>> too long in the RFC editor=E2=80=99s queue anymore, so there ought to be=
 no
>> additional delay.
>> Stephan
>>
>> From: payload <payload-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of John Fletcher <
>> John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk>
>> Date: Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 03:22
>> To: "Ali C. Begen" <ali.begen@networked.media>, "payload@ietf.org" <
>> payload@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>>
>> Apologies for slightly late comments but ...
>>
>> In section 2.1, definition of "C" bit, HD signals are mentioned but not
>> UHD.  I think the definition really depends on whether the SDI interface
>> uses separate data channels for luma and color-diff, so perhaps the
>> specification could be re-worded along those lines.  At the very least, =
say
>> "HD and UHD signals".
>>
>> Specifications about RTP timestamp clock rate appear in section 3.1 as
>> part of the media format parameters but I think these should be in secti=
on
>> 2 as part of the timestamp definition.  Section 3.1 should just say that
>> the Rate parameter is required.
>>
>> Section 1, Introduction, uses normative word "should" in "It should be
>> noted that".  I suggest changing to "Note that".
>>
>> In section 3.1, the normative word "may" is used in "implementers may
>> care" and "may not care".  It's not appropriate to give implementers
>> permission or to forbid them from caring.  I suggest changing to "might"=
.
>>
>> In section 3.1, "those that must interoperate with", I suggest deleting
>> "must".
>>
>> In section 4, "the ancillary data stream may potentially contain",
>> suggest changing to "might" to indicate possibility rather than permissi=
on.
>>
>> In section 4.1, the normative word "may" is used in "implementers may
>> wish to".  It's not appropriate to give implementers permission to wish.=
  I
>> suggest deleting "to wish".
>>
>> In section 5, again we have "may with", I think meant to be "may wish".
>> I suggest changing to "might wish" in this case.  Other uses of "may" in
>> this section seem fine but should be capitalised.
>>
>> In section 7, "It may still be a good idea", suggest changing "may" to
>> "might".
>>
>> In section 7, "receivers should take care to", I suggest deleting "take
>> care to".
>>
>> Some uses of "required" in the memo are not specifying normative
>> requirements, suggest re-wording or changing to "needed".
>>
>> Several occurrences of "may", "must", "should", "required" and "optional=
"
>> are not capitalised.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* payload [payload-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Ali C. Begen [
>> ali.begen@networked.media]
>> *Sent:* 04 April 2017 15:49
>> *To:* payload@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-08
>>
>> WG,
>>
>> We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some
>> significant changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.
>>
>> Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your
>> comments to the list by April 19th.
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-0=
8
>>
>> Thanks.
>> -acbegen (co-chair)
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk
>> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
>> personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
>> stated.
>> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
>> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
>> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
>> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
>> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>>
>> ---------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk
>> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
>> personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
>> stated.
>> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
>> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
>> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
>> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
>> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>>
>> ---------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> payload mailing list
>> payload@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
>>
>>
>
>
> ----------------------------
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain persona=
l
> views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
> ---------------------
>

--001a1141465c2441e2054dfbb820
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:53 PM, John Fletcher <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletcher@bb=
c.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">







<div>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078b5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b=
">
</p><div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:tahoma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-si=
ze:10pt">If RFC2119-update is in force and referred to in the payload-rtp-a=
ncillary memo, that would be OK.=C2=A0 But the current memo is using the ol=
d RFC2119.<br></div></div></blockquote><div>I think Stephan did suggest ref=
erencing the draft=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:tahoma;=
font-size:13.3333px">RFC2119bis</span>.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:taho=
ma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:10pt">
<br>
I agree that clarity on what is normative and what isn&#39;t is the importa=
nt thing.=C2=A0 One way to achieve that, and a way that will help readers m=
ore familiar with documents from other SDOs, is only to use the normative w=
ords in normative context.</div></div></blockquote><div>I agree it is one w=
ay forward, Stephan&#39;s is another.<br></div><div><br></div><div>One can =
of course do both, they are not conflicting.</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"direction:ltr;fo=
nt-family:tahoma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:10pt">
John<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:&quot;times new roman&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-size:16px">
<hr>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078divRpF518050" style=3D"direction:ltr"=
><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Stephen Bo=
tzko [<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.botzko@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stephen=
.botzko@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 April 2017 18:39<br>
<b>To:</b> John Fletcher<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stephan Wenger; Ali C. Begen; <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-<wbr>ancillar=
y-08<br>
</div></div></font><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:26 AM, John Fletcher <=
span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletc=
her@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:calibri,sans-serif">
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-=
4441-b188-6160239f8432"></p>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:tahoma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:1=
0pt">This memo is likely to be used as a normative reference in a SMPTE sta=
ndard.=C2=A0 In SMPTE documents, the normative words are not capitalised.=
=C2=A0 Therefore I think it is best that normative
 words are only used in a normative context, regardless of the capitalisati=
on.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>[sb]In my opinion that&#39;s not an IETF issue.=C2=A0 Clarity on what =
is normative and what isn&#39;t normative is.=C2=A0 RFC2119-update is an op=
tion (and future payload RFCs will be using it&#39;s conventions anyway).=
=C2=A0 So I&#39;m with Stephan here. [/sb]</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:calibri,sans-serif">
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:tahoma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:1=
0pt"><br>
John<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:&quot;times new roman&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-size:16px">
<hr>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-3317155921161531726divRpF413723" s=
tyle=3D"direction:ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><=
b>From:</b> Stephan Wenger [<a href=3D"mailto:stewe@stewe.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">stewe@stewe.org</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 20 April 2017 18:21<br>
<b>To:</b> John Fletcher; Ali C. Begen; <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">
payload@ietf.org</a>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancilla<wbr>r=
y-08<br>
</div>
</div>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078h5">
<div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>John,</div>
<div>With the soon-to-be RFC=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-update" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.o=
<wbr>rg/doc/draft-leiba-rfc2119-upd<wbr>ate</a>/ (which clarifies that only=
 CAPITALIZED keywords carry normative weight),
 your various points about the use of normative language in a non-normative=
 context seem moot, no?=C2=A0 No language gymnastics needed.=C2=A0 Seems to=
 me that ancillary draft authors had that change in mind=E2=80=A6 =C2=A0or =
is your comment directed to a user community where capitalization
 of keywords does not matter (like in the IETF back in the days)?</div>
<div>In order to get that unambiguously right, the authors may want to chan=
ge the RFC to RFC2119 to the rfc2119-update draft.=C2=A0 That draft shouldn=
=E2=80=99t be too long in the RFC editor=E2=80=99s queue anymore, so there =
ought to be no additional delay.</div>
<div>Stephan</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-3317155921161531726MAC_OUTLOOK_SIG=
NATURE"></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-3317155921161531726OLK_SRC_BODY_S=
ECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:calibri;font-size:12pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-bottom=
-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-top-col=
or:rgb(181,196,223);border-right-color:initial">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>payload &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:payload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of John Fletcher &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk=
" target=3D"_blank">John.Fletcher@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 0=
3:22<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Ali C. Begen&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ali.begen@networked.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@netw=
orked.media</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">payload@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [payload] WGLC for dra=
ft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancilla<wbr>ry-08<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-=
42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd"></p>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-family:tahoma;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:1=
0pt">Apologies for slightly late comments but ...<br>
<br>
In section 2.1, definition of &quot;C&quot; bit, HD signals are mentioned b=
ut not UHD.=C2=A0 I think the definition really depends on whether the SDI =
interface uses separate data channels for luma and color-diff, so perhaps t=
he specification could be re-worded along those
 lines.=C2=A0 At the very least, say &quot;HD and UHD signals&quot;.<br>
<br>
Specifications about RTP timestamp clock rate appear in section 3.1 as part=
 of the media format parameters but I think these should be in section 2 as=
 part of the timestamp definition.=C2=A0 Section 3.1 should just say that t=
he Rate parameter is required.<br>
<br>
Section 1, Introduction, uses normative word &quot;should&quot; in &quot;It=
 should be noted that&quot;.=C2=A0 I suggest changing to &quot;Note that&qu=
ot;.<br>
<br>
In section 3.1, the normative word &quot;may&quot; is used in &quot;impleme=
nters may care&quot; and &quot;may not care&quot;.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not appro=
priate to give implementers permission or to forbid them from caring.=C2=A0=
 I suggest changing to &quot;might&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 3.1, &quot;those that must interoperate with&quot;, I suggest de=
leting &quot;must&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 4, &quot;the ancillary data stream may potentially contain&quot;=
, suggest changing to &quot;might&quot; to indicate possibility rather than=
 permission.<br>
<br>
In section 4.1, the normative word &quot;may&quot; is used in &quot;impleme=
nters may wish to&quot;.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not appropriate to give implementer=
s permission to wish.=C2=A0 I suggest deleting &quot;to wish&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 5, again we have &quot;may with&quot;, I think meant to be &quot=
;may wish&quot;.=C2=A0 I suggest changing to &quot;might wish&quot; in this=
 case.=C2=A0 Other uses of &quot;may&quot; in this section seem fine but sh=
ould be capitalised.<br>
<br>
In section 7, &quot;It may still be a good idea&quot;, suggest changing &qu=
ot;may&quot; to &quot;might&quot;.<br>
<br>
In section 7, &quot;receivers should take care to&quot;, I suggest deleting=
 &quot;take care to&quot;.<br>
<br>
Some uses of &quot;required&quot; in the memo are not specifying normative =
requirements, suggest re-wording or changing to &quot;needed&quot;.<br>
<br>
Several occurrences of &quot;may&quot;, &quot;must&quot;, &quot;should&quot=
;, &quot;required&quot; and &quot;optional&quot; are not capitalised.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family:&quot;times new roman&quot;;color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-size:16px">
<hr>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-3317155921161531726divRpF121431" s=
tyle=3D"direction:ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><=
b>From:</b> payload [<a href=3D"mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">payload-bounces@ietf.org</a>] on behalf of Ali C. Begen [<a href=3D=
"mailto:ali.begen@networked.media" target=3D"_blank">ali.begen@networked.me=
dia</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2017 15:49<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancilla<wbr>ry-08=
<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">WG,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We will run another WGLC on this draft as there have been some signifi=
cant changes since we ran the WGLC earlier.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please have a look at the draft (at least to the diff) and send your c=
omments to the list by April 19th.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rt=
p-ancillary-08" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/htm=
l/draft-ietf-payload-rtp<wbr>-ancillary-08</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks.</div>
<div>-acbegen (co-chair)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-=
42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-=
42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">----------------------------<br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><br>
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317155921161531726il">bbc</span>.<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078=
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<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317264aeb0e0f-c67f-=
42ce-bc35-6d175fcbd3cd">---------------------</p>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078h5">
<p></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-=
4441-b188-6160239f8432">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-=
4441-b188-6160239f8432">----------------------------<br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D"3"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><br>
<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-3=
317155921161531726il">bbc</span>.<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078=
m_-3317155921161531726il">co</span>.<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135=
078m_-3317155921161531726il">uk</span></a><br>
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal =
views which are not the views of the
<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-3317155921161531726il">BBC</sp=
an> unless specifically stated.<br>
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.<br>
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance=
 on it and notify the sender immediately.<br>
Please note that the <span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-331715592=
1161531726il">BBC</span> monitors e-mails sent or received.<br>
Further communication will signify your consent to this.</font></font></fon=
t></font></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078m_-33171559211615317265ee3aaf6-6264-=
4441-b188-6160239f8432">---------------------</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
payload mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:payload@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">payload@ietf.org</a><=
br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/payload</a><=
br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<p></p><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078b5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b=
">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078b5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b=
">----------------------------<br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"=
><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman"><br><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><a href=3D"http://w=
ww.bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://www.<span class=3D"gmail-m_799819597=
9880135078il">bbc</span>.<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078il">co</=
span>.<span class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078il">uk</span></a><br>This e=
-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and=20
may contain personal views which are not the views of the <span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_7998195979880135078il">BBC</span> unless specifically stated.<br>If y=
ou have received it in=20
error, please delete it from your system.<br>Do not use, copy or disclose t=
he=20
information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender=20
immediately.<br>Please note that the <span class=3D"gmail-m_799819597988013=
5078il">BBC</span> monitors e-mails=20
sent or received.<br>Further communication will signify your consent to=20
this.</font></font></font></font></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_7998195979880135078b5106d6a-14db-4c5e-b594-6a7a4117503b=
">---------------------</p></div></div></div>


</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1141465c2441e2054dfbb820--


From nobody Tue Apr 25 04:28:31 2017
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From: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org>
CC: "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Agenda time for IETF 99
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Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:28:11 +0000
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Hi guys,
Do we need a payload session in Prague.
I think currently flex-fec is the only active WG document
Regrards
Roni Even
Payload co-chair.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi guys,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we need a payload session in Prague.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think currently flex-fec is the only active WG doc=
ument<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regrards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Roni Even<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Payload co-chair.<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
To: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>
CC: "payload@ietf.org" <payload@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [payload] Agenda time for IETF 99
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